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Why only 256bit memory interface?

P

pandora's box

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Whats stopping nvidia and ati from making a card that uses 512bit memory interface? is it technically possible? would there be a performance increase from it? :confused:
 
good guestion, i think it's all bout money issue. it might cost em more to make 512 bit memory interface.
 
Cost / difficulty.

Think about it with a 256bit memory interface, the GPU has 256 pins on it that only do memory data transfer (this is not counting memory control pins, clock pins, not to mention interface to the computer via PCIe/AGP etc. etc.) each of those need to be routed on the video card to the pins of a memory chip, kept close to the same length as the other memory pins, avoiding crosstalk and able to run at speeds over 500mhz (1ghz ddr).

And you want them to Double that? Heck the Xbox 360 has cut that in half to keep complexity down (128bit memory interface).

The future will probably be faster narrower RAM, Rambus like.

==>Lazn
 
There are existing cards that do have 512-bit GDDR3 interfaces. But complexity of design and cost to manufacture have got to be sky-high. The only thing small about that card is probably it's user base!
 
The Wildcat realizm 800 is over 2000 dollars...

im sure the memory amount and complexity has to do with that
 
also, you eventually hit a point of diminishing returns. Remember that "256-bit" memory used on cards is really 4 64-bit crossbars. You never actually have 256-bit pieces of data going through the pipe, so instead it allows for 4 simultaneous 64-bit pieces to be transferred. Now you could stack up those crossbars all day long but eventually it's not going to help any...it's kinda like why we don't see 512-bit gpu's either (the parhelia showed that it CAN be done without much difficulty). Once you get that high, the addressibility just goes to waste.
 
what's to stop intel and amd from making 128 bit processors?
what's to stop companies to make 20feet long LCDs?

it just cause we aren't at that point in technology...

i bet they already have prototypes but tehy aren't nearly stable enough for production
 
Take a look at the GDDR3 setups on prior cards. It's easy to see that with the currently manufactured GDDR3 chips that you can do:

128MB on 128-bit

256MB on 256-bit (basically two 128MB banks of 128-bit ram interleaved)

512MB on 256-bit (basically four banks of 128MB 128-bit ram interleaved)

To up the bit range with the existing products available (memory products), you'd be ramping up the capacity as well as the bit range. A little overkill at this time for the money. Look how costly the 512MB cards are in comparison to the 256MB and the little benefit provided at this time.

Just not cost effective or feature effective to draw the customer base beyond saying "hey we're 512-bit on the memory pipe".
 
pandora's box said:
Why only 256bit memory interface?
Click to expand...

You make it sound like a bad thing?! I agree they could make faster but the added complexity is not worth it, at the moment they're dealing with cards that have between 8 and 10 layers, with twice the number of traces to memory that's going to cause some serious problems!
 
Couldn't they just make the chips bigger? I mean with these 3 pound heat sinks we're using, I doubt very much that size is much of a problem.
 
Obi_Kwiet said:
Couldn't they just make the chips bigger? I mean with these 3 pound heat sinks we're using, I doubt very much that size is much of a problem.
Click to expand...

Then they can even add some adjustable scaffolding instead of games in the box for support purposes. You know...a marketing ploy like "Buy our card and we'll help hold it up!"...instead of "Buy our card and give you something to play on it!" :p
 
Obi_Kwiet said:
Couldn't they just make the chips bigger? I mean with these 3 pound heat sinks we're using, I doubt very much that size is much of a problem.
Click to expand...

Bigger chips = lower yields = higher cost = higher MSRP = nobody buys it = no revenue = bankruptcy ;).
 
Well judging by the die size of the 256Bit Memory Interface cards, you need a minimum of around 200mm2, or so before you can implement it, hence why we haven't seen it on any of the mianstream level card.

512Bit Interface would be just be staggering to implement, so for now all we can hope for is increase bandwidth thru the increase in the clock frequency of the ram, or make the memory do more work per clockcycle or somethin.

Looking at the Geforce 7800 GTX which has a die size of around 320mm2, it looks like it may either not have a large enough surface area for the pins necessary. Or it is already expensive enough as is.

Back in 2001, was around the time when they started to implement the memory crossbar technology, on Geforce 3. We used to have the full 128bit Memory interface on Geforce 2., but by the time we moved to 256Bit, that memory crossbar technology, was pretty much standard on most video cards. Like Geforce 4 Ti (4x32), Geforce 4 MX (2x64).

Processors with over 300mm2 die size are already expensive enough as is to produce on even 300mm wafer tech, do we want to make them even more expensive. :p
 
trinibwoy said:
Bigger chips = lower yields = higher cost = higher MSRP = nobody buys it = no revenue = bankruptcy ;).
Click to expand...

not understanding sarcasm = limited social skills = social awkwardness = difficulty gettings jobs that require people skills = awkward girlfriend (if that) = awkward children who don't understand sarcasm = ...
 
HighTest said:
Take a look at the GDDR3 setups on prior cards. It's easy to see that with the currently manufactured GDDR3 chips that you can do:

128MB on 128-bit

256MB on 256-bit (basically two 128MB banks of 128-bit ram interleaved)

512MB on 256-bit (basically four banks of 128MB 128-bit ram interleaved)

To up the bit range with the existing products available (memory products), you'd be ramping up the capacity as well as the bit range. A little overkill at this time for the money. Look how costly the 512MB cards are in comparison to the 256MB and the little benefit provided at this time.

Just not cost effective or feature effective to draw the customer base beyond saying "hey we're 512-bit on the memory pipe".
Click to expand...


Uhh, the first 256-bit mainstream cards were 128MB, what kind of relation is there between bus width and memory size?
 
sativa said:
not understanding sarcasm = limited social skills = social awkwardness = difficulty gettings jobs that require people skills = awkward girlfriend (if that) = awkward children who don't understand sarcasm = ...
Click to expand...

Do you really want someone to show the life of a flamer? :rolleyes:
 
They have ram that is capable of 512bits.... but it's probably not a good idea at this time for all the reasons given.

~Adam
 
trinibwoy said:
Bigger chips = lower yields = higher cost = higher MSRP = nobody buys it = no revenue = bankruptcy. = ...
Click to expand...


sativa said:
not understanding sarcasm = limited social skills = social awkwardness = difficulty gettings jobs that require people skills = awkward girlfriend (if that) = awkward children who don't understand sarcasm = ...
Click to expand...

I agree with Trinibwoy, Bigger chips are always bad when producing chips, it is an amazing thing that they get the yields that they do, considering that the smallest thing can render the chip useless. Especially with GPU because they are so tightly packed with transistors, If you where to increase the die size, you are almost certain to have defects with a bigger die size. Also unless you are Intel (even if you are Intel) high yield is very important because you are limited by your Fab capacity and the time that it takes to produce these chips.

These companies do not have warehouses where the store these chips until they are being sold, If they are being made that means that they have been sold and somebody is waiting on them.

It has been long known that not having social skills doesn't exclude you from having a job that requires people skills (example look at your boss, most likely zero people skills and yet he is still your boss). And for the fact of having a girl friend when you lack the very minimum of people skills is still very possible and strangely very common.
 
Skrying said:
Uhh, the first 256-bit mainstream cards were 128MB, what kind of relation is there between bus width and memory size?
Click to expand...

At that time, less expensive 64MB modules were available but I don't recall if these were GDDR3.

128MB 256bit - 2 64MB 128bit modules interleaved.

Sorry for the confusion. While it's possible that 64MB modules may still be available and be used for a 512MB card, that's still a large number of chips to cool and run traces too without crosstalk and other signalling problems at the 1200MHz frequency that it'd likely run at.
 
sativa said:
not understanding sarcasm = limited social skills = social awkwardness = difficulty gettings jobs that require people skills = awkward girlfriend (if that) = awkward children who don't understand sarcasm = ...
Click to expand...

Not only are you too stupid to realize I was simply answering the thread question and not attacking you but I'm 23, calling down over 90K a year in a sweet job and have a fine ass girl to boot. But I won't hold a grudge ....it must be really hard being you. ;) Anybody who would react the way you did definitely isn't getting any.
 
trinibwoy said:
Not only are you too stupid to realize I was simply answering the thread question and not attacking you but I'm 23, calling down over 90K a year in a sweet job and have a fine ass girl to boot. But I won't hold a grudge ....it must be really hard being you. ;) Anybody who would react the way you did definitely isn't getting any.
Click to expand...

What's your rackett? Lemme in on it :)
 
BossNoodleKaboodle said:
What's your rackett? Lemme in on it :)
Click to expand...

Haha. Bachelor's in CS, being an arrogant know-it-all ass and some good luck in landing an internship as an application developer at a top Wall St Investment Bank. That internship led to a full time job just when the market was getting rosy again :)
 
trinibwoy said:
Haha. Bachelor's in CS, being an arrogant know-it-all ass and some good luck in landing an internship as an application developer at a top Wall St Investment Bank. That internship led to a full time job just when the market was getting rosy again :)
Click to expand...

There's those that have "Computer Science" degree's and then there are those that have "Computer Engineer" degrees. The difference? Electonics Engineering that require that you know how to design and build them beside program them, CE is basically EE with Computer Science thrown ontop ;) Sure there are a lot of CS and EE people out there, but not as many CE's so we become the translators between the two teams for many companies leading to real effective collaboration between the two philosophies.

So while programing for the investment bank you might be using some equipment that may have been designed and project managed by some of us CE's :D

Sorry, my only point is that it was inappropriate to have others denegrate your possible status and position in life, but those of us that are living "sweet" opportunities shouldn't brag too highly. But I digress, it's good to enjoy a job that supports our families in the lifestyle of which they have become aquainted. :p
 
trinibwoy said:
Haha. Bachelor's in CS, being an arrogant know-it-all ass and some good luck in landing an internship as an application developer at a top Wall St Investment Bank. That internship led to a full time job just when the market was getting rosy again :)
Click to expand...

Hmmm how does the arrogance and know-it-all-ism assist your career?
 
HighTest said:
There's those that have "Computer Science" degree's and then there are those that have "Computer Engineer" degrees. The difference? Electonics Engineering that require that you know how to design and build them beside program them, CE is basically EE with Computer Science thrown ontop ;) Sure there are a lot of CS and EE people out there, but not as many CE's so we become the translators between the two teams for many companies leading to real effective collaboration between the two philosophies.

So while programing for the investment bank you might be using some equipment that may have been designed and project managed by some of us CE's :D

Sorry, my only point is that it was inappropriate to have others denegrate your possible status and position in life, but those of us that are living "sweet" opportunities shouldn't brag too highly. But I digress, it's good to enjoy a job that supports our families in the lifestyle of which they have become aquainted. :p
Click to expand...

Most CE's i know suck at both. It isn't their fault, the course setup just screws them. You should really get a major in one and a minor in the other or major in both. Doing it the CE way bascially gives you a minor in both. So you become a jack of all trades and a master of none. The companies are looking for master of one with the good knowledge in the other. They would prefer a master of both. Getting a CS and a EE major takes about 16 more credits at most universities if you play it right. What is another semester....not much.

It is amazing the amount of times I need to rewrite the C code our software engineers write because the C to assembly translater sucks. We've reduced some of our filter functions by an order of magnitude in CPU time. Is the code they wrote bad...no, it is actually quite elegant. Does it run good on the hardware...fuck no.

-tReP
 
HighTest said:
There's those that have "Computer Science" degree's and then there are those that have "Computer Engineer" degrees. The difference? Electonics Engineering that require that you know how to design and build them beside program them, CE is basically EE with Computer Science thrown ontop ;) Sure there are a lot of CS and EE people out there, but not as many CE's so we become the translators between the two teams for many companies leading to real effective collaboration between the two philosophies.

So while programing for the investment bank you might be using some equipment that may have been designed and project managed by some of us CE's :D

Sorry, my only point is that it was inappropriate to have others denegrate your possible status and position in life, but those of us that are living "sweet" opportunities shouldn't brag too highly. But I digress, it's good to enjoy a job that supports our families in the lifestyle of which they have become aquainted. :p
Click to expand...

I actually started out doing a dual-degree in CS and EE but then dropped EE when I got the internship since those skills aren't really necessary when coding typical business applications. I'm thinking about a master's in computational finance which would be more useful in my field.

I wasn't trying to brag - I'm sure there are a lot of people here much better off than me. I quoted the gross figure - after NY taxes and NY rent it comes out to be much much smaller :(
 
BossNoodleKaboodle said:
Hmmm how does the arrogance and know-it-all-ism assist your career?
Click to expand...

It definitely helps when the time comes to let your opinion be known or to step up and accept more responsibility. Since you are surrounded by so many other smart people it takes "attitude" to get ahead. I was a bit shy/timid at first but as I got more confident in understanding the systems and workflows I could get more involved in the design and project management decisions and demonstrate some leadership qualities. Management likes that. Now somebody just as smart or smarter who doesn't show initiative or doesn't make his opinions known is likely to be left behind.
 
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