Why I (sometimes) hate Linux

[1_rick]

Installed Mint 22 xfce on a mini PC a month or two ago. Mostly it's been fine, I'm actually using it about half the time for day-to-day stuff.

Today I installed some software I knew enabled analytics on installation--no option; you have to run the app once to be able to turn it off. So I thought, I'd outsmart it and disconnect from my wifi, run the app, disable analytics, reconnect to wifi.

No. While I was doing that, my network icon vanished from the panel. If you've ever tried to find help for a problem on linux, you'll know it's just as bad as it was 20 years ago: every link is either "my wifi's not working at all (drivers, some weirdness) or "how do I get my icon back from [3 versions ago]" and nobody can keep an interface the same for more than 6 weeks (it's like turning off the "hide the scrollbar" in Linux; every new version of Mint, they move the setting) or "follow these steps to bring the icon back" and step two, the app they tell you to run isn't there.

I just want my stupid icon back. I'm not going to install anything--first off, because I can't, and second off, because it was working ten minutes ago.

I'd like to find whoever thought hiding the network connections icon because you turned your wifi off was a good idea and slap 'em, hard, a couple times.

Thanks for listening to my TED talk. Gonna try rebooting and see if that works. If it does, just imagine another rant here, aimed personally at Linus, about Linux turning into Windows.

 

[1_rick]

OK, who would--in a million years--guess that this (XApp Status Plugin) is the NetworkManager Appliet, which is what it calls itself when you right-click on it and choose About? I rebooted and it magically came back.

Before I rebooted, that XApp Status Plugin was in the Panel Preferences, even though the icon was missing. If you told me Microsoft paid someone to do that I would believe you right at the moment.

Rant over, hopefully it'll be a while before I run into abject stupidity like this.

 

[toast0]

If it does, just imagine another rant here, aimed personally at Linus, about Linux turning into Windows.

I mean, I get you, but afaik, Linus only works on the kernel, and your problem is with userland. Those userland guys are full on chodes. NetworkManager has never been useful for me. systemd is by the same guy who ruined Linux audio for decades with PulseAudio. systemd having an unskippable wait for DHCP on wired ethernet on my laptop when there's no cable plugged in was the last straw for me; it also didn't help that despite the promise of systemd restarting crashy daemons, the distribution package for ZoneMinder didn't enable restarting when it crashed.

Now, I'll use Linux in embedded devices and for work cause I don't get to pick, but all my servers are FreeBSD and when I get tired of windows 10, probably my desktops too. If that means I miss out on stuff, oh well, at least I'll have my sanity.

 

[1_rick]

I mean, I get you, but afaik, Linus only works on the kernel, and your problem is with userland.

Yeah, I know what you mean. It's a pity they won't do to the systemd guy what they did to the bcachefs guy. I mean, everything about this was jsut stupid--why the hell did my icon go away? What moron named it? Etc. Anyway I'll probably be fine for another couple months at this point, except for the tiny scroll bars.

 

[uOpt]

I don't disagree at all.

All that clickibunti admin stuff sucks.

What should happen is that you get a clear commandline interface so that you can re-activate from a terminal. In a predictable manner, a manner that doesn't change. You don't want to learn commandlines again, once should be enough. But NetworkManager is not that. FreeBSD has a predictable CLI interface for wifi, but that doesn't buy Linux users much as long as that NetworkManager can do its thing, which is "everything automatic and if it goes wrong screw you".

 

[Nobu]

My guess is the applet crashed silently, because there was no crash handler. I remember that happening before, but I'm not sure if it was fedora, ubuntu, or some other distro.

Acturally, not sure there is a crash handler for xfce...can't remember. I know kde has DrKonqi, I'm sure Gnome has something as well.

 

[uOpt]

Well, that's even worse. Suppressing error messages that should be routed to the user.

 

[Nobu]

Not supressed, just not expressed. I'm sure there's an error in a log somewhere. Probably in .xsession or some such in your home folder. The issue is there's no reporting of the error to the user. It's not a feature of xfce apparently -- I looked around and couldn't find anything comparable to drkonqi anyway.

The price you pay for a lightweight desktop env, I guess.

 

[emphy]

OK, who would--in a million years--guess that this (XApp Status Plugin) is the NetworkManager Appliet, which is what it calls itself when you right-click on it and choose About? I rebooted and it magically came back.

Before I rebooted, that XApp Status Plugin was in the Panel Preferences, even though the icon was missing. If you told me Microsoft paid someone to do that I would believe you right at the moment.

Rant over, hopefully it'll be a while before I run into abject stupidity like this.

View attachment 693434

That is not the network manager, that is a plugin to display the status icon (or indicator, or whatever it is called nowadays) from, among other other programs, the network manager. You can check its settings to see which programs sent it status icons to display.

On a side note, someone over at the mint xfce team must have been asleep for a few years; xapp status' functionality has been taken over by the status tray since xfce 4.15 (mint xfce 20?). The system should also display the network status when the xapp status is removed from the panel.

 

[1_rick]

The system should also display the network status when the xapp status is removed from the panel.

Well, I mean, yes, "the system should display the network status" is kind of my point. I don't really care how it gets done, it shouldn't just disappear with no way (apparently) short of rebooting to get it back. I didn't mention this but I even tried removing the icon and adding it back from Panel Preferences and couldn't find it.

You can check its settings to see which programs sent it status icons to display.

From where? I tried clicking and right-clicking both on the network icon (when it came back after I rebooted) and the XApp icon inside the panel preferences dialog and didn't see anything like that. That's why I assumed the XApp icon was the Network Manager icon, only badly named.

Not supressed, just not expressed. I'm sure there's an error in a log somewhere. Probably in .xsession or some such in your home folder.

Ok, but that's not great design. I looked in .xsession-errors and it was a swamp of stuff including just recording a pile of settings, various errors and deprecation messages about all sorts of stuff, and mysteries like this:

thunar-volman: Unsupported USB device type "usb"

 

[Wade88]

Installed Mint 22 xfce on a mini PC a month or two ago. Mostly it's been fine, I'm actually using it about half the time for day-to-day stuff.

Today I installed some software I knew enabled analytics on installation--no option; you have to run the app once to be able to turn it off. So I thought, I'd outsmart it and disconnect from my wifi, run the app, disable analytics, reconnect to wifi.

No. While I was doing that, my network icon vanished from the panel. If you've ever tried to find help for a problem on linux, you'll know it's just as bad as it was 20 years ago: every link is either "my wifi's not working at all (drivers, some weirdness) or "how do I get my icon back from [3 versions ago]" and nobody can keep an interface the same for more than 6 weeks (it's like turning off the "hide the scrollbar" in Linux; every new version of Mint, they move the setting) or "follow these steps to bring the icon back" and step two, the app they tell you to run isn't there.

I just want my stupid icon back. I'm not going to install anything--first off, because I can't, and second off, because it was working ten minutes ago.

I'd like to find whoever thought hiding the network connections icon because you turned your wifi off was a good idea and slap 'em, hard, a couple times.

Thanks for listening to my TED talk. Gonna try rebooting and see if that works. If it does, just imagine another rant here, aimed personally at Linus, about Linux turning into Windows.

Debian works pretty well still but I've only ever really used it for headless servers mostly. The Steam Deck is the only good linux wifi experience I've ever had except for the brief time I ran it live to partition something with a laptop years ago it worked fine for the few minutes I needed it at least. The steam deck reliably gets 400 mbps down and 500-600 on the oled.

 

[1_rick]

Debian works pretty well still but I've only ever really used it for headless servers mostly.

The machine in question is used as a daily driver.

Mostly I like Cinnamon. It's just every great once in a while I run into something like this--or, what I consider to be worse, the whole hiding scrollbars stuff, and the lengths you have to go to get them back, which seem to change every couple of releases. (Microsoft's almost as bad, with two big exceptions: one, there's an easy-to-find single setting that doesn't move around (if you know enough to search the web for it, anyway...) but that's offset by the way so many applications just more or less ignore it.

Narrow, rounded scrollbars are stupid on a desktop.

 

[Wade88]

The machine in question is used as a daily driver.

Mostly I like Cinnamon. It's just every great once in a while I run into something like this--or, what I consider to be worse, the whole hiding scrollbars stuff, and the lengths you have to go to get them back, which seem to change every couple of releases. (Microsoft's almost as bad, with two big exceptions: one, there's an easy-to-find single setting that doesn't move around (if you know enough to search the web for it, anyway...) but that's offset by the way so many applications just more or less ignore it.

Narrow, rounded scrollbars are stupid on a desktop.

I haven't thought about cinnamon in a long time, kde has been fine at least since I tried it again in 2022 it just works. I suspect if a wifi adapter were installed in that system it would work fine just like the different wireline and fiber nics i've used in it. That said during the brief management sessions the icons stay the same at least 2 3/4 years by now.

 

[auntjemima]

The machine in question is used as a daily driver.

Mostly I like Cinnamon. It's just every great once in a while I run into something like this--or, what I consider to be worse, the whole hiding scrollbars stuff, and the lengths you have to go to get them back, which seem to change every couple of releases. (Microsoft's almost as bad, with two big exceptions: one, there's an easy-to-find single setting that doesn't move around (if you know enough to search the web for it, anyway...) but that's offset by the way so many applications just more or less ignore it.

Narrow, rounded scrollbars are stupid on a desktop.

Still to this day my Razer mice have outrageous speed issues, even with the setting then all the way down in the GUI. I have to make a batch file and run it each time to get a reasonable speed. Been like this over many iterations. The DPI buttons don't work at all.

Network issues are always prevalent for me. In the end I need to go to the store, find a network card or usb NIC and then Google what chip it has and hope it's one Linux supports. Always fun searching up chip revisions just to get wifi

And I've never had wifi work out of the box. Always need to download drivers separately.

 

[1_rick]

I haven't thought about cinnamon in a long time, kde has been fine at least since I tried it again in 2022 it just works. I suspect if a wifi adapter were installed in that system it would work fine just like the different wireline and fiber nics i've used in it.

Yeah, but the machine has ethernet and wifi built in so I shouldn't have to.

 

[1_rick]

And I've never had wifi work out of the box. Always need to download drivers separately.

This machine came with Intel AX200, and that worked fine out of the box (except for the bult-in antennae were tiny. I bought some aftermarket ones but they turned out to be not a lot bigger, but I was able to place them to get a bit more signal strength.)

I posted a link a while ago in the "newest purchase" thread on GenMay. The machine is, overall, great for Linux as long as you don't want to do AAA gaming. Everything worked out of the box, and it's pretty cheap.

 

[uOpt]

FWIW, to get the applet back you probably "only" have to log out and back in, not reboot.

Razer hardware belongs in the trashcan, Linux or not.

 

[Wade88]

All sorts of networking issues are completely sidestepped by wireline and fiber. I only had to add a driver for a sfp28 thing once the rest of the time it's just worked especially since debian added proper non-free firmware. That said if the nic you're installing isn't old you should leave your old nic running while it gets whatever it needs to run your newfangled one. I have 10, 2.5, and 1 gigabit nics in our haf 932 x99 server all of which just worked but they weren't dependent on the new nic yet to get things from apt.

 

[1_rick]

All sorts of networking issues are completely sidestepped by wireline and fiber.

True, but the apartment's not wired for Ethernet.

 

[Wade88]

True, but the apartment's not wired for Ethernet.

Stuff like this is why our ilk buys property instead, that and breed/size restrictions for critters.

 

[auntjemima]

FWIW, to get the applet back you probably "only" have to log out and back in, not reboot.

Razer hardware belongs in the trashcan, Linux or not.

Like it or not, Razer hardware is massive. They cover a wild range of hardware.

But thank you for the typical Linux response. "That hardware is lame anyway, so who cares".

Always the same.

 

[1_rick]

Stuff like this is why our ilk buys property instead, that and breed/size restrictions for critters.

That's my plan eventually but fairly sudden cross-country move didn't leave time for a search.

 

[emphy]

Well, I mean, yes, "the system should display the network status" is kind of my point. I don't really care how it gets done, it shouldn't just disappear with no way (apparently) short of rebooting to get it back. I didn't mention this but I even tried removing the icon and adding it back from Panel Preferences and couldn't find it.

Sorry, mistyped what I intended to say - that last comment was not to provide a solution, just an opportunity to remove said badly named software ^_^

 

[uOpt]

No. While I was doing that, my network icon vanished from the panel.

Same thing just happened to me in Mint. Losing a lot of respect for XFCe.

To clarify, the icon in the panel is the only way to reach network configs. There is no "settings->network".

WTF?

 

[1_rick]

WTF?

The Mint people probably should engage in some anti-seo against their older versions. And it would be nice if they'd stop, or at least cut back on how often they move stuff around. Although that may be partially upstream.

 

[1_rick]

To clarify, the icon in the panel is the only way to reach network configs. There is no "settings->network".

This deserves its own mention, for how stupid it is. If someone ever said "just reboot" to me over this, id fly to their house so I could say "ok, bill gates" to their face.

 

[Nobu]

Yeah, I used to really like xfce, but I haven't used it in a long time, because it just felt incomplete/alpha to me. It was never super buggy in my experience, but it had a lot of little problems, and development had slowed considerably, especially with the new gtk release.

Now I almost exclusively use kde plasma. I like openbox and the like, but I don't have patience to tweak that to my liking anymore.

 

[1_rick]

Yeah, I used to really like xfce, but I haven't used it in a long time, because it just felt incomplete/alpha to me. It was never super buggy in my experience, but it had a lot of little problems, and development had slowed considerably, especially with the new gtk release.

Now I almost exclusively use kde plasma. I like openbox and the like, but I don't have patience to tweak that to my liking anymore.

Yeah, I'm wondering if I can switch desktop environments easier; the reason I picked xfce doesn't really apply (I figured it would run better on my mini pc, which was an overblown concern.)

 

[auntjemima]

Yeah, I'm wondering if I can switch desktop environments easier; the reason I picked xfce doesn't really apply (I figured it would run better on my mini pc, which was an overblown concern.)

Changing desktop environments is as easy as installing one you like and then logging out and picking the new DE and logging in.

 

[uOpt]

Woah, now you people made me look. I normally use fvwm2 and do everything myself, but now I went through the common desktop environments on Ubuntu and Mint. Holy fuck is that trashy. KDE plasma is the only usable thing in there after a couple hours of actually exercising these things.

 

[philb2]

Woah, now you people made me look. I normally use fvwm2 and do everything myself, but now I went through the common desktop environments on Ubuntu and Mint. Holy fuck is that trashy. KDE plasma is the only usable thing in there after a couple hours of actually exercising these things.

You guys know that you can always use either a Mac or a Windows PC. Not kidding.

 

[1_rick]

You guys know that you can always use either a Mac or a Windows PC. Not kidding.

I'm typing this on a Windows PC.

 

[GoldenTiger]

You guys know that you can always use either a Mac or a Windows PC. Not kidding.

Yep, I always do. Linux on the desktop is a no go for me. Windows is the gold standard of desktop operating systems for a reason.

 

[emphy]

You guys know that you can always use either a Mac or a Windows PC. Not kidding.

Meh, I just get off my ass and submit a bug report for nm-applet's missing menu item on minty's issue tracker over on github. I'd submit a fix (if you can call it that) myself, but it's not obvious which project it should be submitted to (mint, xfce, or gnome), so I'll let the good people over at mint handle it.

I gather from the linuxmint forums that the crashing of the applet itself is already being looked into.

Edit: Here's a real screamer for op. The applet in question got a proper name (Network Manager Applet) upstream at the gnome project over a year ago, and it's actually in the list over at /usr/share/applications/ of the mint installation, but someone, somewhere, decided that it was a good idea to set its "NoDisplay" in the .desktop file to "true", ie to keep it out of the start menu and software search results.

 

[uOpt]

You guys know that you can always use either a Mac or a Windows PC. Not kidding.

Or FreeBSD. On FreeBSD there is no problem using a semi-desktop like fvwm2. Everything is configured from /etc as it should, mostly from /etc/rc.conf.

On Linux you can't even configure the wifi unless you have a medium or heavy DE. The dock or panel based ones don't work standalone. Commandline use of NetworkManager is an exercise in frustration.

 

[ChadD]

I know this isn't going to be a popular response.

If you use wifi and other software heavy things. Don't run a super minimal DE like XFCE. XFCE is great for ancient machines. Comparing XFCE to a Mac or Windows experience is a bit silly. It is like buying a smart car or something and complaing it has less storage space then the family SUV.

XFCE is a ripped down DE. Things like WIFI managers are extensions, created often by a single user not even specifically the DEs developer. XFCE is a DE with like 3 people on the development team. Think of the 200 megabyte DEs like XFCE and LXQT as experimental insanely light weight DEs that are best used by people willing to deal with hacking anything beyond the basic basics together themselves. I like XFCE fine but I would never use it as a daily driver.

Run Gnome or KDE. Neither has issues with WIFI applets. Both have all the features + that you would expect to find in proper DEs like Apples. If you do end up needing support both projects have 100s strong development teams, resonablly good support apparatus, and a lot more up to date info you can find yourself with a basic google search.

I don't even really get the point of trying to use XFCE anymore honestly. 10 years ago ok... lots of us had old machines with 4gb maybe even less ram. At this point even "ancient" machines you might daily drive have at least 8gb of ram. You can afford 600-700mb for your DE. Saving 300mb or so to torture yourself with lite DEs in 2024 seems an odd choice imho anyway.

 

[Vermillion]

Windows is the gold standard of desktop operating systems for a reason.

That's too funny for words. It crams shit like Recall down your throat, crams AI down your throat, literally installs itself when you tell it not to, artificially places limits on hardware requirements for installation, talks back to the mother ship non-stop and doesn't tell you everything about what it's sending back, forcing online accounts over local users, and my favorite...pushing ads in your face. "Gold standard" my ass. If that's what's considered a "gold standard" you can keep it.

Anyways...

XFCE while it's lightweight and a fairly clean desktop environment, it is way behind the times in many ways. It was my DE of choice for many years, but it's really a second class citizen nowadays which is both a disappointment and not wholly unexpected. Honestly, you want master class in a desktop environment? KDE Plasma 6.2 can't be beat. Plasma has been my go-to DE now for at least a decade now and I've never looked back.

The other DE to keep an eye on is COSMIC. System76 I think maybe has something special there. Even in the alpha builds is quite nice and quite impressive. Time will tell but COSMIC may be able to replace Plasma as my DE.

 

[uOpt]

I know this isn't going to be a popular response.

If you use wifi and other software heavy things. Don't run a super minimal DE like XFCE. XFCE is great for ancient machines. Comparing XFCE to a Mac or Windows experience is a bit silly. It is like buying a smart car or something and complaing it has less storage space then the family SUV.

XFCE is a ripped down DE. Things like WIFI managers are extensions, created often by a single user not even specifically the DEs developer. XFCE is a DE with like 3 people on the development team. Think of the 200 megabyte DEs like XFCE and LXQT as experimental insanely light weight DEs that are best used by people willing to deal with hacking anything beyond the basic basics together themselves. I like XFCE fine but I would never use it as a daily driver.

Run Gnome or KDE. Neither has issues with WIFI applets. Both have all the features + that you would expect to find in proper DEs like Apples. If you do end up needing support both projects have 100s strong development teams, resonablly good support apparatus, and a lot more up to date info you can find yourself with a basic google search.

I don't even really get the point of trying to use XFCE anymore honestly. 10 years ago ok... lots of us had old machines with 4gb maybe even less ram. At this point even "ancient" machines you might daily drive have at least 8gb of ram. You can afford 600-700mb for your DE. Saving 300mb or so to torture yourself with lite DEs in 2024 seems an odd choice imho anyway.

Well, GNOME integrates with systemd these days which is a big no-no for me.

But I get the point, re-testing had KDE come out as the winner.

I still maintain that Wifi configuration should be an application, not an applet. The applet needlessly nails down the usage pattern.

 

[GoldenTiger]

That's too funny for words. It crams shit like Recall down your throat, crams AI down your throat, literally installs itself when you tell it not to, artificially places limits on hardware requirements for installation, talks back to the mother ship non-stop and doesn't tell you everything about what it's sending back, forcing online accounts over local users, and my favorite...pushing ads in your face. "Gold standard" my ass. If that's what's considered a "gold standard" you can keep it.

None of that has ever happened to me except a Copilot search bar which I right clicked and permanently hid. It's clear you've never used windows 11 and are parroting sensationalistic rumors. Like it or not, windows is the gold standard of desktop operating systems.

Linux certainly is not, a distant third to macos. There's a reason Linux only makes up 1-2% market share after 30 "year of the Linux desktop" proclaimed by its lovers.

 

[emphy]

XFCE while it's lightweight and a fairly clean desktop environment, it is way behind the times in many ways.

(emphasis added)

Which is precisely why I use it. Its positively glacial development pace is a relief to me.

I can chuck in my favorite theme from the noughties and it gets out of the way, as opposed to screaming "look at me, being your clever desktop". No thanks, I want stability in my desktop environment, thankyouverymuch.

Never could get along with kde; I usually mess something up in the first few minutes of use, then spend way too long figuring out how to fix it.

Kde software is awesome, though. Where gnome's applications always stick out like a sore thumb, a few clicks gets kde's to look like they were tailor-made for xfce.