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Microsoft Security Essentials - disadvantages?

I also run avira (I bought the professional version) and MSE at the same time.

Avira has caught things that MSE has not. I like running them both and don't have ANY issues at all with it. Best of both worlds imo.

I also run Commodo firewall, and Secundia (check secundia out if you haven't).

All of this is also sitting behind an ASA with both outgoing and incoming rules. (I also have a fortinet that I switch back and forth with).

I'm quite protected.
 
Stanley Pain said:
I was refering to the "data corruption" portion. That's a little far fetched, the worse that would happen is that two AV products fight for who gets to quarantine/delete something.
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So programs cannot corrupt other data in RAM and cause data loss?
New to me.

Can't say nobody warned you...
 
TechieSooner said:
So programs cannot corrupt other data in RAM and cause data loss?
New to me.

Can't say nobody warned you...
Click to expand...

Why would they be corrupting other programs data in memory? *boggle* Using that analogy you could apply that to any programs running on the computer. Oh no! I've got MSE and Word running at the same time! I bet Word is going to sneak and corrupt MSE's data thats in ram right now!

It isn't like MSE and Avira are using the same memory blocks in ram... or would even try to adjust each others... I'm not sure you understand the concept of how programs allocate and use memory.
 
Sure, you could apply that to anything.
But the chances of Word and Excel trying to use the same file are nill. Futhur, if they actually did, they'd just error out.

Anti-virus is designed to sniff out stuff like that and take control of it. Having two applications that do that trying to go after the same file is dangerous.

Again- do what you want. But don't spread that crap around as advice to other users.
 
TechieSooner said:
Sure, you could apply that to anything.
But the chances of Word and Excel trying to use the same file are nill. Futhur, if they actually did, they'd just error out.

Anti-virus is designed to sniff out stuff like that and take control of it. Having two applications that do that trying to go after the same file is dangerous.

Again- do what you want. But don't spread that crap around as advice to other users.
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You obviously have a fine grasp of how a file system works or how the majority of AV software work :eek:

The kinda of corruption you're talking about is more likely to happen with some advanced root kits than 2 pieces of AV software misbehaving.
 
zervun said:
Why would they be corrupting other programs data in memory? *boggle* Using that analogy you could apply that to any programs running on the computer. Oh no! I've got MSE and Word running at the same time! I bet Word is going to sneak and corrupt MSE's data thats in ram right now!.
Click to expand...

Errmmm.....an antivirus programs memory resident and real time file protection work quite a bit differently than a regular desktop application.
 
YeOldeStonecat said:
Errmmm.....an antivirus programs memory resident and real time file protection work quite a bit differently than a regular desktop application.
Click to expand...

All of which still have to adhere to a set of policies governed by the OS for whatever filesystem it's on, which is why most if not all AV software fails to stop some of the really nasty rootkits out there, thankfully those aren't really out in the wild.
 
Stanley Pain said:
All of which still have to adhere to a set of policies governed by the OS for whatever filesystem it's on, which is why most if not all AV software fails to stop some of the really nasty rootkits out there, thankfully those aren't really out in the wild.
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That couldn't have ANYTHING to do with the fact that the signatures aren't written for them...
 
TechieSooner said:
That couldn't have ANYTHING to do with the fact that the signatures aren't written for them...
Click to expand...

No, it's just an inherent flaw in signature based scanning and the fact that these root kits sit above kernel level, or fully load the OS into a virtual machine with the rootkit being the hypervisor itself, or many other nasty things.

For great AV you need signature based scanning + good heuristics + HIPS
 
Stanley Pain said:
No, it's just an inherent flaw in signature based scanning and the fact that these root kits sit above kernel level, or fully load the OS into a virtual machine with the rootkit being the hypervisor itself, or many other nasty things.

For great AV you need signature based scanning + good heuristics + HIPS
Click to expand...

I'm just amazed Eset hasn't picked you up yet.
:rolleyes:
 
TechieSooner said:
Sure, you could apply that to anything.
But the chances of Word and Excel trying to use the same file are nill. Futhur, if they actually did, they'd just error out.

Anti-virus is designed to sniff out stuff like that and take control of it. Having two applications that do that trying to go after the same file is dangerous.

Again- do what you want. But don't spread that crap around as advice to other users.
Click to expand...

Your kidding right?

Not even mentioning that there are at least two of us that have done this with absolutely no issues.

I don't claim to be a programming guru (I have though taken quite a few programming courses and actively code php/mysql), but odds are the AV's are watching the other memory resident programs via pointers and not accessing the memory blocks themselves until the time is needed to act on something, this goes for files as well. Not to mention with your file example the odds that both are monitoring the same file at the same time might be close to nill, unless they are doing some kind of HIPS on an active program. Even then, the files and or memory might be locked by either program preventing access to it. If one finds it and blocks/quarantines it and so forth do you think the other one is going to fail? Avira has detected things so far that MSE has not picked up, it has quarantined them without issues. And again not to even mention that quite a few people run things such as spybot along side another AV. Spybot also does some HIPS/heuristics, as well as many of the AV packages. Hell, there are dozens of programs that do some type of "live" monitoring, and many people have more than one of those running.

The bottom line is a couple of us are running both with no issues, and IMO it's great as it is best of both worlds, and they both have extremely small footprints. I'm not saying go out and do this for everyone, but it does work, and the couple of us are "real world" examples of that fact. Your giving your advice based on __________ (please insert something there other than the catch all "uninstall other AV programs before you use ours" that every AV, and or HIPS type systems says which can also be because they don't want you using competitors products as well".

It sounds like you don't even have any concept of how programs access memory, or how AV monitors things, have claimed no proof that this is a bad idea, yet are telling us that our advice is crap.
 
There might be folks that run it no problem but that does not mean it's GENERAL ADVICE FOR EVERYONE.

That's my point.

I, along with a bunch of others here, have had problems first hand with running two AVs.
See what happens when they both try to access an opened database at the same time... Not a bright idea. It's bad enough getting one to work, forget it with two.
 
YeOldeStonecat said:
Errmmm.....an antivirus programs memory resident and real time file protection work quite a bit differently than a regular desktop application.
Click to expand...

Yes, gimp example I know. That still doesn't mean that they will have issues together.

It really depends on how the programs reference memory and active files. If it was an issue, things would have probably broken a long time ago.
 
TechieSooner said:
There might be folks that run it no problem but that does not mean it's GENERAL ADVICE FOR EVERYONE.

That's my point.

I, along with a bunch of others here, have had problems first hand with running two AVs.
See what happens when they both try to access an opened database at the same time... Not a bright idea. It's bad enough getting one to work, forget it with two.
Click to expand...

No one recommended it, I just made comment on the fact that AV software can and does play well together.
 
Stanley Pain said:
No one recommended it, I just made comment on the fact that AV software can and does play well together.
Click to expand...

And I agree, I didn't recommend it either just defending what we have, that it does work fine. For all I know it could not work well with another combination, but I know it does with MSE and Avira professional.

I also did a search on Techiesonner's posts trying to find any inkling of issues he has had that he has posted here running 2x AV and came up with nothing, or these "many others" that have had issues. Granted that could be my gimp search skills and the 2 character search limit. However since his last post was completely ambiguous - I mean if I was defending myself, I would give specifically which AV's conflicted, how, and so forth. Seems that he is just making a judgment call without any evidence and not knowing anything about memory/file access.

Being that I SE install a ton of HIPS, AV, IPS, IDP, etc (I'm a security engineer for a consulting firm), I see the issues that end users have when they deploy said products on an enterprise level. I have yet to see a issue with multiple AV products, and that's with people converting from one companies products to another, and a lot of times have both running because an uninstall did not happen. This is with companies of 500 - multiple thousands of users.

There are probably some conflicts out there, but I have not seen them yet. I don't recommend running multiple AV's, however I like the extra protection. Avira has great detection rates, but high false positives. I can cross reference that with my MSE findings. MSE is still new, and I feel that extra comfort due to having avira along for the ride is good.

For me "bad advice" is when you give advice without knowledge of said things, especially when people are having real world success stories with it.... then giving no examples of why it shouldn't work.
 
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Stanley Pain said:
No one recommended it, I just made comment on the fact that AV software can and does play well together.
Click to expand...
Really... Hmm... I was under the impression this whole thread was about the possible shortcomings of a particular AV client...

Jerec said:
So does anyone know what MSE might be missing?
Click to expand...

Stanley Pain said:
Haven't had any issues with running the AVIRA and MSE together since the start of the MSE beta.
Click to expand...

Didn't suggest it huh???


zervun said:
I also did a search on Techiesonner's posts trying to find any inkling of issues he has had that he has posted here running 2x AV and came up with nothing, or these "many others" that have had issues. Granted that could be my gimp search skills and the 2 character search limit.
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Because every detail, problem, and experience of my professional career is archived here on [H]
:rolleyes:
 
Seriously, you can't be that dense.

This whole thread was derailed by this idiot comment

/me waits for the day when you come posting here because your machine is totally screwed up when the two AV's attacked each other.
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A wonderful statement, with no backing that was just trolling, way to add something helpful to the thread. There was no iota of insight on to why this was the case, it was basically just bashing him for running two at the same time. In fact, lets talk about how this thread is about MSE because that post had NOTHING to do with MSE, you were calling him out for running 2x AV at once. The original poster could have rubbed himself against a rusty lamp pole and got more solid technical advice out of it then your first post. It also makes me wonder what awesome advice you are going to provide us when our 2 AV's attack each other and we come here looking for advice. Perhaps I can't even post! omg! My MSE and Avira have started a civil war on my computer! Jeeves come get my sleuthing kit!

Stanley Pain just said he was running both, he never suggested it, or recommended it, even your quote shows that he didn't. He just said that he isn't having issues running both. The thread is about MSE, but you got all flustered because people said that they were running more than just MSE. Stanley never said that MSE was bad. I for one think MSE is great, especially for free and without pop-ups. Would I recommend running both for regular users? no - but it's not going to hurt from my experience and avira does have excellent detection rates. For those of us that have bought it, why not use avira until it runs out, even if I hadn't bought it I might run both. MSE is great though and I applaud Microsoft, it was a great addition and is marking well.

You still have absolutely 0 proof that it's even a bad idea running both. If you are basing this on your "professional" career it makes me wonder what job you actually do. I suppose it's also my bad to expect that your horrible experiences of running two AV's would be posted on the forum that you are arguing about so many people having the same issues as yourself. Definitely my bad. Also somewhat ironic that I couldn't even find any posts of people having issues with multiple AV's just in general. When I have an issue, I tend to post it on here to help others such as http://www.hardforums.com/showthread.php?t=1458251

You have yet to even say even which two AV conflicts you have had together, and what happened.

With that said, without another fantastic post of ambiguity which two AV's have you had running at the same time has caused you issues, and the many others you are talking about? Are you going to actually make a post that has some evidence that running two AV's are bad?
 
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zervun said:
With that said, without another fantastic post of ambiguity which two AV's have you had running at the same time has caused you issues, and the many others you are talking about? Are you going to actually make a post that has some evidence that running two AV's are bad?
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I made one already in this post, on a bench rig that I've used for cleaning infested PCs...I'm never concerned about its health since it's just an expendable bench rig, but I had NOD32 v4 and MSE on it for a few weeks. Then one week it was running like a slug, taskman had CPU pegged at 100%, one of the Eset processes. Disabled real time with MSE..no diff, uninstalled MSE, all better. This example goes to show you that even disabling the real time protection doesn't necessarily keep one from stepping on the toes of another.

I've worked on many many clients rigs where they had the old OEM install of some AV on their PC, and they went and installed a 2nd AV forgetting about the one that came with the rig I suppose. Soon as uninstall one of them..the rig runs multiple times better.
 
I'm done with this thread.

Last comment. MSE is a wonderful AV software that's FREE. It's been faring well in a lot of independent tests, even against some of the big boys like AVIRA, NOD32, G-data, etc. It still has a way to go, but heck it's free and has 0 NAG screens.
 
zervun said:
Seriously, you can't be that dense.

This whole thread was derailed by this idiot comment
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I'd argue that it was derailed by bringing up another AV in a thread about MSE. Even your own words: "This is a thread about MSE".

I've got to say something against bad advice. The folks here know better than to follow it, however there's a ton of novice users that find these threads and are led astray by crap like that.

zervun said:
It also makes me wonder what awesome advice you are going to provide us when our 2 AV's attack each other and we come here looking for advice.
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Probably to run it the way it was intended.

Good luck getting any support from the manufacturer once they find out you're running dual AV clients, especially when they print it in black and white text in their requirements.

zervun said:
Stanley Pain just said he was running both, he never suggested it, or recommended it, even your quote shows that he didn't.
Click to expand...
Bullshit.

"What are the shortcomings of MSE?"
"I have to run Avira along with it so that I'm covered"

If that's not an endorsement for running dual AV I have no idea what is.
 
Way to take things out of context.

Stanley did not even suggest running two until people asked why, his first post did not promote running two at all.

Seriously? Manufacturer support? Alot of people run free AV which has no support. Avira, AVG, etc. When was the last time you called support for an AV issue?

It all comes down to the fact that some of us run both without issue. Real world proof > theorycraft.

You are giving bad advice especially to newbies based on completely circumstantial evidence. You have not given an example of any proof that running 2 av's is bad, yet we have 2 av's running without issue.

MSE has picked up things Avira hasn't, Avira has picked up things MSE hasn't. I'd say that it's nice that both have a extremely small footprint, compliment each other, and have 0 issues running together. Why the hell is that bad advice? We are proof that it works.
 
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YeOldeStonecat said:
I made one already in this post, on a bench rig that I've used for cleaning infested PCs...I'm never concerned about its health since it's just an expendable bench rig, but I had NOD32 v4 and MSE on it for a few weeks. Then one week it was running like a slug, taskman had CPU pegged at 100%, one of the Eset processes. Disabled real time with MSE..no diff, uninstalled MSE, all better. This example goes to show you that even disabling the real time protection doesn't necessarily keep one from stepping on the toes of another.

I've worked on many many clients rigs where they had the old OEM install of some AV on their PC, and they went and installed a 2nd AV forgetting about the one that came with the rig I suppose. Soon as uninstall one of them..the rig runs multiple times better.
Click to expand...

This. I see this at least five times a week. OEM installs Norton or McAfee and one of their cousins suggests switching to such and such, CPU gets pegged at 100%, they bring it in whining.

You're essentially using the logic, "Oh, I play in the street all day and have never been hit by a car - so does my friend Dwayne! CARS MUST NOT HIT HUMANS!"
 
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