Right, because a turbo charged v6 with premium gas vs a stock v8 on rwd with unleaded is totally the same
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Lasers Could Boost Engine Efficiency By 27%
- Thread starter HardOCP News
- Start date
Right, because a turbo charged v6 with premium gas vs a stock v8 on rwd with unleaded is totally the same
AliceCooper
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Well, more fuel efficient, but diesel engines still have issues minimizing particular pollutants from their exhaust like much higher levels of soot and NOx: http://www.theicct.org/news/press-r...aust-emissions-modern-diesel-cars-seven-times
Part of the reason they are more efficient is that they run VERY lean compared to gasoline engines. They can run lean as there is little risk of pre-detonation with diesel fuel. That's part of the problem with a lot of diesel owners though is that they chip their diesel, because you can make more power out of a diesel by dumping in more fuel and running closer to stoichiometric air/fuel ratio, but when you do the diesels become SUPER POLUTERS, like BIG TIME!
The a-holes you see that are blowing huge smoke stacks out of their trucks are doing this for example (and sometimes taking out the particulate filters too), and IMO need to be anally raped with a rusty iron serving spoon.
(feel free to slash tires, they are really expensive to replace)
That said, low emissions diesels are getting better every year, and all-inclusive they make more sense than hybrids for probably most of the United States where we travel on highways 90% of the time.
Actually becoming a "super polluter" would mean he is running rich
. Diesels run lean by design, that is the point in which the fuel/air ratio is in balance to where there is no unburnt fuel. So by nature they are stoich, even though they are "lean" (using less fuel for the amount of air). Also while producing more NOx, they put out less hydrocarbons, carbon monoxide, and carbon dioxide than gas vehicles. What you are seeing in that picture is not just a chipped diesel.... A diesel with a Edge Juice w/ Attitude even with the hot unlock will not produce that amount of smoke even if the guy is holding down the brake, torque locked it in 3rd, and slamming on the throttle unless he pulled off a coupler between the intake and turbo causing mass amounts of fuel to dump into the combustion chamber. So those trucks are obviously running aftermarket injectors with probably stacked chips and they're throttling with the brake on. As soon as you get on it and start moving, those trucks will lean out a substantial amount due to the turbo spooling up forcing more air into the combustion chamber. If you throw a chip onto an otherwise stock truck, you'll get a tiny initial puff of smoke then off they go, if they get on it hard from the start. Also did you know you can do the same crap with a gas car? Ever seen a 2 step launch control? A lot of those burn rich and lean out after the car begins to move and produce boost or take in more air. Finally if you run that rich for too long, you'll blowup your turbo or melt a piston. I am not condoning what they do, it is stupid. Now if you blow a shit ton of smoke out that leans out as you go and your truck is fast as fawk, that's ok in my book because it is tuned and there's basically nothing you can do about that initial puff of smoke. Torque locking and brake standing are both dumb when all your doing is blowing black smoke.You realize you're rolling your eyes at me when you're the one that needs to learn to read..... Mmmmmmhmm.Actually becoming a "super polluter" would mean he is running rich
1) That's exactly what I said, diesels are designed to run lean, but you can modify them to run closer to stoich which puts out tons of soot.
2) No, they aren't "by nature stoich". Ugh, you need to look up the definition of stoichiometric.
And I don't know why you're confused as I clearly explained it; they run lean which they have to because while you can get more power at stoichiometric (duh, by definition) air-fuel ratios, you don't do that because diesel doesn't mix or burn as quickly and cleanly as gasoline and so you end up with pollutants and soot.
Regarding options for running rich, I'm sure there are many ways to screw with emissions equipment, but a chip is a simple option to trick the ECU into thinking you're running leaner than you are and dumping in too much fuel. How its done isn't really important, and yes obviously its going to shorten the life of the vehicle covering everything in soot. Ideally it would shorten the life of the driver, preferably with ass cancer.
Reliability of the motor goes down quite a bit if you start cranking up the temps with current materials and methods of manufacture. Really big problem is the seals and lubricants IIRC. They really don't like high temps.
Plus, a hot engine isn't a good thing. You just want the heat contained where its supposed to be, and ceramic coatings work for that.
I had my C6 head ceramic coated since I got a good deal on it.
AliceCooper
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You realize you're rolling your eyes at me when you're the one that needs to learn to read..... Mmmmmmhmm.
1) That's exactly what I said, diesels are designed to run lean, but you can modify them to run closer to stoich which puts out tons of soot.
2) No, they aren't "by nature stoich". Ugh, you need to look up the definition of stoichiometric.
And I don't know why you're confused as I clearly explained it; they run lean which they have to because while you can get more power at stoichiometric (duh, by definition) air-fuel ratios, you don't do that because diesel doesn't mix or burn as quickly and cleanly as gasoline and so you end up with pollutants and soot.
Regarding options for running rich, I'm sure there are many ways to screw with emissions equipment, but a chip is a simple option to trick the ECU into thinking you're running leaner than you are and dumping in too much fuel. How its done isn't really important, and yes obviously its going to shorten the life of the vehicle covering everything in soot. Ideally it would shorten the life of the driver, preferably with ass cancer.
A stoichometric mixture is exactly how I explained it, a lean mixture is a lean mixture and a rich mixture is a rich mixture... Stoich is when you have the proper amount of air to burn the amount of fuel supplied... That is the definition. I guess what I should have said is they run "leaner" than gas engines. So, the fact that diesels need less fuel for the amount of air supplied than a gas engine would, does not mean they run lean, it means they run stoich, by using less fuel than a gas vehicle using the same amount of air supplied. Have you ever seen a gas engine run rich? It does the same thing as a diesel, it throws soot out the exhaust..
Grahamkracka
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You realize you're rolling your eyes at me when you're the one that needs to learn to read..... Mmmmmmhmm.
1) That's exactly what I said, diesels are designed to run lean, but you can modify them to run closer to stoich which puts out tons of soot.
2) No, they aren't "by nature stoich". Ugh, you need to look up the definition of stoichiometric.
And I don't know why you're confused as I clearly explained it; they run lean which they have to because while you can get more power at stoichiometric (duh, by definition) air-fuel ratios, you don't do that because diesel doesn't mix or burn as quickly and cleanly as gasoline and so you end up with pollutants and soot.
Regarding options for running rich, I'm sure there are many ways to screw with emissions equipment, but a chip is a simple option to trick the ECU into thinking you're running leaner than you are and dumping in too much fuel. How its done isn't really important, and yes obviously its going to shorten the life of the vehicle covering everything in soot. Ideally it would shorten the life of the driver, preferably with ass cancer.
I would prefer testicular cancer, so the dumbass can't reproduce.
You realize you're rolling your eyes at me when you're the one that needs to learn to read..... Mmmmmmhmm.
1) That's exactly what I said, diesels are designed to run lean, but you can modify them to run closer to stoich which puts out tons of soot.
2) No, they aren't "by nature stoich". Ugh, you need to look up the definition of stoichiometric.
And I don't know why you're confused as I clearly explained it; they run lean which they have to because while you can get more power at stoichiometric (duh, by definition) air-fuel ratios, you don't do that because diesel doesn't mix or burn as quickly and cleanly as gasoline and so you end up with pollutants and soot.
Regarding options for running rich, I'm sure there are many ways to screw with emissions equipment, but a chip is a simple option to trick the ECU into thinking you're running leaner than you are and dumping in too much fuel. How its done isn't really important, and yes obviously its going to shorten the life of the vehicle covering everything in soot. Ideally it would shorten the life of the driver, preferably with ass cancer.
Stoich is the combustion of all fuels. By design diesel engines are generally stoich and can remain so even when chipped. If the proper amount of air is delivered to the combustion chamber to allow combustion of all the fuel then by definition the engine is stoich.
My diesel is chipped and even running full tilt it will barely haze for a second at launch until the turbo catches up. It's all derived from a proper air to fuel ratio. My truck also happens to lack any sort of EGR emissions system as well as the catalytic converter, Straight air in through the filter, combustion, straight out through 4" of 'Murica straight pipe. A chip generally doesnt dump in too much fuel unless it is boost fooling the system to run too rich since the engine is already running lean and theres head room to continue running stoich.
The majority of soot you see pouring out from trucks, busses, big rigs, etc is very temporary until the turbo has time to spool up and provide more air. Even with these occasional expulsions of soot, diesel engines are still far more efficient than gasoline engines.
I cant speak for the retards who stack chips and throw 150hp injectors in their trucks while running a stock turbo. All they're doing is blowing black money out their tailpipes.
Look, I already pointed out that you are wrong, and recommended you look up the definition. Repeating yourself is not a debate tactic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoichiometry
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air–fuel_ratio
Stoichiometric air fuel ratios involve the theoretical mixture of air to fuel ratio to burn all fuel WHILE USING ALL THE AIR in a chemical equation. Air is a reagent. It is the perfect mixture of fuel and air, to where both are consumed, but no engine operates on such ideals for obvious reasons, and a lean burning engine isn't stoichiometric for obvious reasons if you know what the definition of the word is. Heck, even the Wiki has a line almost exactly what we're talking about:
Wikipedia said:
Cool story, what does that at all have to do with the conversation? Are you implying that you can't control the air-fuel ratio with a chip? I wonder how I'm able to do that on my laptop, and run it ridiculously rich on stock injectors/fuel pump.
Soot is soot, and what does that have to do with rolling coal? The only thing I can figure out here is you really didn't read my post and went on a knee-jerk defensive reaction because you drive a chipped diesel truck and felt attacked.
Oops, my bad, it was AliceCooper that I recommended look up the word. Either way, you're both wrong. Diesels are not designed to run at stoich air-fuel ratios, and the definition of "lean" or "rich" is relative to a complete fuel oxydation reaction, aka, a stoichimetric ratio.
Ashbringer
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How does one coat the heats with ceramic? Titanium Ceramic Coating? Wouldn't it be better to just get better stronger heads? There's so many for the LSX engines.
How about a Corvette C5 vs Prius? Or a C6 with turbos getting 42 MPG? Bow before your v8 master race.Right, because a turbo charged v6 with premium gas vs a stock v8 on rwd with unleaded is totally the same
Why care about hybrids and lasers when you could just stick a LSX engine and get great gas mileage?
AliceCooper
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Just so you know, I never had the definition of stoich wrong. In fact I stated it in my last post, the exact definition. One thing about diesels is their lean is actually stoich because if they were at the stoichiometric ratio, the engine doesn't allow for the full burning of the fuel, which is actually contradictory to what stoich means. " If exactly enough air is provided to completely burn ALL of the fuel, the ratio is known as the stoichiometric mixture, often abbreviated to stoic. (wikipedia)". Because stoich on a diesel does not allow the burning of all the fuel, there is excess air provided to burn ALL the fuel. So a diesels stoich is actually lean.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air–fuel_ratio
Grahamkracka
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Apples and oranges when comparing two different cars with very different drag coefficients.
Ashbringer
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The Prius has a lower drag coefficient.
I've explained this to you and given you links. AIR IS A REAGENT. What part of that is confusing to you? If you have burned all the fuel and have excess air, you are running LEAN. If you have used all the air and have excess fuel you are running RICH. If you use all the air and fuel, you have a stoichiometric ratio. This isn't rocket science, yet you post "lean" and "stoichiometric" in the same sentence. *bangs head on table*
I give up. Go post that on a physics forum for laughs... its like the airplane on a treadmill all over again.
Its a thermal barrier, not so much done for "strength". I had em done by GTP here in Houston: http://www.gtp-racing.com/upgrades.html
Not sure how much gain you get from that alone, but since I was swapping in new heads and it wasn't that expensive, figured why not. At the very least, it should improve longevity.
I am sorry this stayed in my mind (read about this fairly long ago) as running hotter.
In a way it is, but more specifically hotter intake fuel/air mix.
http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/hrdp-1009-what-ever-happened-to-smokeys-hot-vapor-engine/
Been years of this, yet nothing, and we are talking about lasers.. kind of a joke.
In a way it is, but more specifically hotter intake fuel/air mix.
http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/hrdp-1009-what-ever-happened-to-smokeys-hot-vapor-engine/
Been years of this, yet nothing, and we are talking about lasers.. kind of a joke.
N4CR
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As a laser engineer I already thought of this year or two ago.
Problem is modern engines have oil/crap recirculating into your cylinder and the optics get dirty.
They can't get modern direct injection petrol engines to work without major carbon issues over long term use as it is, so I'm skeptical they can get this going any time soon with dirty, 100 year old dino tech.
Problem is modern engines have oil/crap recirculating into your cylinder and the optics get dirty.
They can't get modern direct injection petrol engines to work without major carbon issues over long term use as it is, so I'm skeptical they can get this going any time soon with dirty, 100 year old dino tech.
I know dick all about lasers, but if lasers can cut through steel, then certainly they can cut through a thin film of carbon buildup.
I would think its just a matter of how powerful the laser is, no?
Nenu
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The problem is how not to burn the optic at the same time.
I would do it with a second pair of lasers that focus at the exit point of the main laser, just outside the optic.
I would do it with a second pair of lasers that focus at the exit point of the main laser, just outside the optic.
AliceCooper
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I still think you are applying gasser ideology to diesels. Because like you said, and like we both know, a diesel, when ran "stoich" will not burn all the fuel. So how can it be stoich, if like you said, it uses all the fuel as well? Granted IF a diesel burned fuel like a gasser, it would be a stoich mixture. But the fact that it DOESN'T burn all the fuel means it is in fact running rich. Diesels contradict the definition of stoich when they run because they don't burn all the fuel when ran at a stoichiometric ratio, therefore, like I said above, they are not running stoich. I think we will just agree to disagree
.TwistedAegis
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NYT actually had an article, expects about 80% of vehicles will have turbos by 2025.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/27/automobiles/turbochargers-for-fuel-economy.html?_r=0
No offense, but you just went "full retard". You know how the academy frowns upon that.
Take even the most basic level physics class, and you'll understand how its primarily the heat energy that you are capturing, not "airflow". In fact, what exactly do you think is causing the gasses to rush out of the engine at such a rapid velocity? That they are being PUSHED by the pistons? Well, technically a tiny bit, but peak exhaust pressure is right when the exhaust valve is opened rather than an even push from the cylinder through its stroke, which actually contributes very little. Its the heat causing rapid expansion of the gasses, and the energy extracted by the turbocharger is why a turboed car's exhaust is cooler than a naturally aspirated engine, all else equal.
So the cliffs notes is that its the temperature and pressure drop across a turbine that represents almost all of the energy captured, rather than the minimal energy such as say your blowing onto a pinwheel.
Understanding this very basic concept is why its so important to keep the turbocharger as close to the exhaust ports as possible, and that thermal wrapping of the exhaust is sometimes used to ensure no heat loss before the turbocharger. Otherwise if it were just about "airflow", it wouldn't matter if you mounted the turbocharger in the middle of your car way behind the catalytic converter, since the total exhaust volume exiting the vehicle won't change. But we know that there is heat loss, which is why a turbo mounted too far back won't make much boost and would be extremely laggy trying to build up enough pressure.
For someone being as confident of their knowledge of turbos, I'd hope you are a turbo engineer, but somehow I doubt it.
From what I've read, I'll accede that turbos do have cooler exhaust than without, but it remains to be seen if that temperature delta is providing any meaningful work other than just making the turbo housing radiate additional heat to the engine compartment.
If inlet air temp actually mattered, don't you think there would be some specs and graphs showing optimal temps? Look at http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/turbocharger#GT1544 and show me where they graph inlet temps. In fact, look at every turbo on http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/turbochargers and show me one where inlet temps make some sort of difference irrespective of corrected airflow in lb/min. The only place where temp matters is maximum temps the turbo can withstand before failure.
Some of what I've read states that some of the exhaust gasses are still expanding in the headers, so the turbo does at least make use of that instead of letting them go to waste as in a normally aspirated engine.
Really, the only way to know that turbos are making use of heat is to run some dyno tests in a controlled environment with a close turbo and a far one. Until then, I'll keep an open mind and assume you may be right.
I've said this before, but you're ignoring it. Its a chemical equation, and that chemical equation can't occur within the confines of a diesel engine in which you have insufficient time and imperfect air-fuel mixture occurring. However, as to the original comment, you can increase power by increasing fuel and running richer, since diesels are designed to run lean to ensure all fuel is burned on every stroke. That is why diesel drag tractors let out massive plumes of smoke.
And regarding the definition of stoichiometric air-fuel ratios changing depending on the engine... no, just no. You're not disagreeing with me, you're disagreeing with science. You're pulling a George Bush on me and nodding your head smiling and insisting that the Earth being flat is a matter of opinion.
DocSavage, what happens if you simply move your turbocharger to the tail-end of your vehicle? Does the volume of gases decrease? No, it doesn't. Does the temperature and pressure of the gasses decrease? Yes it does. Does having the turbo behind a cool catalyzer matter? You bet your ass in a huge way, but once its heat soaked its not such a big deal. The energy that exists in the exhaust gasses are stored in the form of heat, creating pressure in all diretions. You're also confused about air-inlets, which are on the compressor side of the turbo, not the turbine. And yes for the compressor side, the act of compressing air heats it, just as expanding air cools it. You do want the compressed charge to be cool though, as cool air is denser than hot air, which is why you pass it through an intercooler which more than makes up for the small pressure drop the intercooler incurs. You don't have to do any testing, just go to your local trusted tuner shop and have them explain it to you as this is common knowledge. Its the reason that people wrap their downpipes to the turbo, to keep that much more heat and pressure in the exhaust gasses.
Actually, here you go:
http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/sites/default/files/PDF/Turbo Tech 101.pdf
EXACTLY THIS, the turbine extracts the energy at its core in the form of heat and pressure drop of the exhaust gases. I'm pretty sure I said just that at some point, hold on:
Ducman69 said:
That statement can be read different ways.
What if the statement is meant to be read as
1. A pressure and temperature drop occurs across the turbine. (much like how refrigerators work - high pressure on one side and lower pressure on the other - doesn't prove that temp drop is doing a damn bit of measurably useful work - maybe it just helps cool the turbine housing and I'm not even sure it's a net drop. It could be heating up the inlet side via back pressure just as much as it cools the exhaust)
2. The turbine harnesses the exhast gas' energy to provide the power necessary to drive the compressor.
Also note that there are rear-turbo kits for cars with small engine compartments.
Whatever. Think what you want, I give up.
THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS "TRUE STOIC" IN ANY ENGINE! You will never be able to burn a perfect ratio of air to fuel and have nothing left over in the end - it is impossible due to the variability of air and the variability of hydrocarbon compounds in gasoline and other fuels.
Given that fact, the generally accepted standard in gasoline engines is that the closest to stoic AFR possible is 14.7:1, based on a bunch of samples of modern gasoline blends.
I don't know what the practical definition for "stoich" is considered in diesel engines, but it will never be a perfectly balanced equation.
Given that fact, the generally accepted standard in gasoline engines is that the closest to stoic AFR possible is 14.7:1, based on a bunch of samples of modern gasoline blends.
I don't know what the practical definition for "stoich" is considered in diesel engines, but it will never be a perfectly balanced equation.