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Java or ASP.NET C# for web development
- Thread starter Despod
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basic_wonder
Weaksauce
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Work for a large corporation = java or .net
anything else = php, python, ruby
java is usually paired with an oracle server
.net is paired with a windows sql server
both cost an arm and a leg to run
anything else = php, python, ruby
java is usually paired with an oracle server
.net is paired with a windows sql server
both cost an arm and a leg to run
Figure out what can work within the requirements of your production environment. Beyond that pick what you like. You may have to do some research to figure out which language offers you the best balance between development time, long term maintenance, and scalability for your particular project.
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Java and .NET work perfectly fine with a variety of databases. I can't speak as to .NET but in Java the database api (JDBC) is vendor neutral.
wonderfield
Supreme [H]ardness
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Don't forget JavaScript
Don't forget JavaScript
JavaScript is not commonly a server side language. As a client side language you would commonly use it in conjunction with anything else already mentioned in the thread.
Starting to be popular with NodeJS as a server-side language. Mostly for API's and such.
wonderfield
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JavaScript is probably as commonly-used on the server-side as Python at this time.
I have no statistics to the contrary, however I will say that I disagree with that statement. Python has lots of uses server side and there is even a major web app framework written in python (Django).
With node.js people have been using JS on the server for like 3-4 years now.
There's close to ~24,000 user libraries for it and growing. I wouldn't say it's more popular than Python but I think it has more traction. I also think it's good for solving different problems though and the reason why it's gaining traction is because more and more web sites are doing more than just outputting fairly static content with server generated templates.
As for OP's question if you had to pick Java or .NET right now and you had no other choices, having no experience in either personally I would likely choose Java. My reasoning is it has tools like GWT which allow you to write the same language on the server and client because it can cross compile Javascript. There's a lot of value in being able to do that. A large portion of Google's apps are written using GWT.
There's close to ~24,000 user libraries for it and growing. I wouldn't say it's more popular than Python but I think it has more traction. I also think it's good for solving different problems though and the reason why it's gaining traction is because more and more web sites are doing more than just outputting fairly static content with server generated templates.
As for OP's question if you had to pick Java or .NET right now and you had no other choices, having no experience in either personally I would likely choose Java. My reasoning is it has tools like GWT which allow you to write the same language on the server and client because it can cross compile Javascript. There's a lot of value in being able to do that. A large portion of Google's apps are written using GWT.
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You should use ASP.NET because Java is terrible, PHP is for noobs, and Ruby is just for hipsters
::ding ding:: "Fight!"
Well said.. .NET is awesome. You can develop great web applications and websites with ease. It's also a well documented and supported architecture and will be for some time to come. .NET continues to get used more and more every year by small and large businesses alike. There's a reason for that... you should definitely check it out.
The only other language I'd consider is Python, and that's only if cost is an issue. As others have said, it is a little more expensive to run a Windows server.
EDIT: Visual Studio is also leaps and bounds better than any Java IDE available... making it easier and more enjoyable to code.
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soulesschild
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I'd argue IntelliJ is on par with VS in terms of paid IDEs.
If you're using Python, take a look into Flask. It's a very bare bones framework but because of that you don't get a lot of the bloat that Django has IMHO. You customize it from the ground up, not top to bottom.
You'd need to include ReSharper if you're going to compare IntelliJ against Visual Studio.
Have you not heard of ASP.NET MVC?
Parmenides
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Yeah, forms asp.net is a pile of pooh, but asp.net MVC is sexy that keeps getting sexier with each new version. It should be almost as cheap as PHP type setups if you connect it to a DB other than MS SQL Server.
Node.js really intrigues me though. Has it been getting enough traction to become a "here to stay" type thing? And is it viable for static pages or is it just a lot of extra work to have the complete web application setup?
Node.js really intrigues me though. Has it been getting enough traction to become a "here to stay" type thing? And is it viable for static pages or is it just a lot of extra work to have the complete web application setup?
wonderfield
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A static file server in Node is about four lines of code. In terms of hassle, no, it's not bad.
With one completed Node project under my belt, I can tell you that Node is really for JS people at the moment. If you don't know the language well, you will stumble with Node, as it's not as well documented as it should be, and that's true of Express and much of its middleware as well. If you know the ins and outs of JavaScript, and if you're targeting small- to medium-sized applications with a heavy emphasis on client-side rendering (where code duplication is a must), Node/Express is essentially what the doctor ordered.
With one completed Node project under my belt, I can tell you that Node is really for JS people at the moment. If you don't know the language well, you will stumble with Node, as it's not as well documented as it should be, and that's true of Express and much of its middleware as well. If you know the ins and outs of JavaScript, and if you're targeting small- to medium-sized applications with a heavy emphasis on client-side rendering (where code duplication is a must), Node/Express is essentially what the doctor ordered.
heatlesssun
Extremely [H]
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Not really especially if you're not hosting the code.
wonderfield
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Why? There's still good information trickling in. When that stops, the thread will slip off everyone's radar and we'll all move on.
I'm sure the admin can figure that out themselves, if that is indeed the case. That's why they're an admin.
Sure but I wouldn't bother using anything to serve static content other than nginx or S3's service. It the content is truly static (no sessions/cookies/etc.) you don't need anything else.
For development I use a node based static server, that's about it. It's 1 line of code due to Express (the most popular light weight web lib for Node).
It's the lack of on-topic and relevant information being presented, with few exceptions for posts like this:
Indeed it is.
Actually scale is close to the least relevant thing possible.
Any web language can do a good enough job to scale for 99% of what people need. Think about it for a second.
Let's say language A can only serve 300 requests per second but language B can serve 1800 requests per second. On paper language B is 6x faster so it has to be heaps better right?
In reality it's not really that much better unless you somehow are going from pre-release to dozens of millions of users instantly.
There's 86,400 seconds in a day.
300 requests per second is capable of serving 25,920,000 requests a day. Even if your traffic is squished into peak times and isn't distributed evenly it's certainly going to be good enough for some quite time.
In language A's case if you need to scale past 25 million requests a day then you spin up a new VPS or add a node to your cloud service and you're good to go until you need 50 million+ requests a day.
Until Despod chimes in, this thread will continue to wander aimlessly.
wonderfield
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With you at the forefront of its meandering into pointlessness.
We call this "irony".
We call this "irony".
Yep at last years conferences. This years ms dev conferences, ms is cancelling most of em and we've heard nothing about mvc5 .net5 or anything that isnt Windows 8, metro, or azure. Most .net devs are being reworked into microsoft's azure services. MS is really pushing hard for azure.
Sgraffite
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I'm not sure what you are saying, but it sounds like you are saying that since MS is pushing cloud hosting services, you no longer need a design pattern?
I can't say that I don't really like Azure, though. I think there's a lot of power and potential in it. Perhaps you're right, though. Maybe between it and Windows 8/Windows RT, the show is getting stolen a bit, though.
ASP.NET MVC isn't a design pattern. It's a framework built around the idea of the MVC design pattern. I agree though: What Microsoft chooses to push doesn't really have any relevance to what aL Mac seemed to be trying to point out (which, as I interpretted it, was that ASP.NET MVC is pretty hot).
Sgraffite
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Correct, but I still don't understand what he is saying.
Fort_Major
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Actually you only need one Design pattern on Azure. It's called CQRS and they push it because it is easily 10x-100x more CPU intensive for "normal operations" and requires pushing/pulling more data.
And they push it because Azure is both Compute Instance charged and Data (storage and Transfer) charged.
Quite the jammy fellow Microsoft is turning into.
Fort_Major
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Honestly I don't think ASP.NET MVC needs a version "5". It has a majority of the makings of what it needs without making it any more bloated. It really at best could use better tooling support, which they sort of did with VS 2012 - It's just a shame they bastardized VS 2012 a tad too much for my liking.
What ASP.NET MVC might be missing, and I feel a) it's not missing it [because i don't want it] and b) it's not really Microsoft's job, is the kind of support (community wise) that something like Ruby on Rails has where you have 8000000 million things that let you do just about everything OOB.
But I feel that type of stuff comes at a price and it usually involves performance (bloated/sloppy) and too many people who can't code and just install some module that does xyz (Ala Coldfusion programmers of lore and WordPress Bloggers).
sorry for not being clear.
i sat through a long meeting about asp.net and what was being hammered was MS pushing for azure. They had no announcements or big events when they released mvc4 which was different from their previous launches. MS is constantly bringing in new application support such as node.js as they've been moving in a path that as mentioned earlier, seems to push for more community ran/built addons for hosting. I'm not saying asp.net or mvc or silverlight is dead or dying but microsoft at the moment seems to be REALLY pushing azure hosting and have put .net on the backburner.
I was trying to point out ASP.NET MVC is hardly "archaic shit" considering it is only a few years old with ASP.NET MVC 4 being fairly new. It's also pretty hot too I guess. I'm not a web dev, but I believe there are three different types of ASP.NET
ASP.NET Web pages
ASP.NET Forms
ASP.NET MVC (Razer engine)
Parmenides
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People might consider responses like that as "the cranky programmer" response. like many programmers worth their weight in gold, you seem to focus in terms of problems, requirements, and solutions. Very important in a job setting, but in a forum setting it's sometimes really nice to just chew the fat. PHP vs. .NET, Python Vs PHP, Ruby on Rails MVC vs .net MVC, Java vs C#.... all that stuff shouldn't be meat to prove once and for all who's greatest, but to get the ideas flowing. I enjoy reading "vs" type threads, not because I want to see a winner but because I often learn tidbits of information: shortcomings, benefits, pitfalls of something I'm less familiar with. A lot of people have experiences that invaluable to listen to even in an off topic informal setting. It's through shop talk that we might learn about newer things things like node.js.
Parmenides
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And that's important too. Does it have to be either or? Sometimes a well thought out post can come outside of a question.