Editorial: Reformatting XP

[Phaedrus]

I see at least three threads a day where someone is about to "reformat and reinstall" windows XP. In just about every thread I reply that this is usually unnecessary and is some throwback kneejerk reactton form the WIN98 era. I dont want to sound like a broken record, and I dont post just to be controversial, but this has become my crusade.

Now I will allow that there might be circumstance where "reformat/reinstall" is necessary. In the real world where I build and fix computers everyday, I havent had to resort to this "reformat/reinstall" since XP came out. I have found that between adaware, good antivirus, and a knowlege of the repair console, XP can be fixed. Since I work on a per hour basis, knowing how to repair XP makes it less expensive for my clients than a reformat/reinstall. And on my contract jobs I dont want to waste time sitting around waitng for a reformat ot finish.

Anyway, I am going to keep replying to these threads witht he question,"WHY WHY WHY?!?!" Im not trying to be annoying, or argumentative, I would simply like to see more people take the time to learn how to repair XP and properly maintain it, rather than resorting to "reformat/reinstall" simply because "hey it's what I did with 98/ME..."

Im not pimping XP or think its the "be-all-end-all." But XP IS NOT WIN 98/ME!!!! If installed and maintained properly XP simply works and keeps on working. My clients try real hard but so far they havent fuxxored an XP installation that couldnt be repaired.

Ok im done ranting.

 

[SEALTeamSix]

If Microsoft would lay out the recovery console in a nice GUI, more people would use it. As it stands the recovery console is recommended for advanced users only, and the typical user doesn't know where to start - let alone use all the commands that are listed on the MS website.

-SEAL

 

[FunkStar]

You have to admit though, reinstalling solves the problem doesnt it? Only takes 2 hours max if you've got things sorted and it clears EVERYTHING and fixes any hidden problems and removes viruses. In a commercial enviroment where reinstalling can be detramental it would be more advised to use an anti-virus program or anti-adware program. But for people (this is [H]ard Forum afterall) at home reinstalling is a quick and easy way to sort out problems, clear drivers and make it just seem 'cleaner'. I personally hate virus programs as their just a money grab and if i have a virus on my computer (never happens) then i like to know its gone.

I never leave an XP install on my computer for over 3 weeks because i just dont like cluttered files and you notice it starting slow a little. 3 weeks might be a bit excessive but i've more or less got the whole install thing down-pat and when i enter a fresh windows i can have everything reinstalled and running in under 15 mins. I'd advise people who want the best performance to reinstall every 3 or 4 weeks or so, and keep a backup drive with all the programs they need to reinstall. For people who arent overly obsessed with every little bit of speed and have good organising skills, leaving an install on for a long time is probably better.

Clients as you say, would need to have their installs remain intact, because of files. But for people at home its different. Most people on here are out for every last drop of speed they can get, so its not suprising.

Side Note: Win 98SE is OMG wow cool cause you can use ChangeSpeed

 

[pandora's box]

You have to admit though, reinstalling solves the problem doesnt it? Only takes 2 hours max if you've got things sorted and it clears EVERYTHING and fixes any hidden problems and removes viruses. In a commercial enviroment where reinstalling can be detramental it would be more advised to use an anti-virus program or anti-adware program. But for people (this is [H]ard Forum afterall) at home reinstalling is a quick and easy way to sort out problems, clear drivers and make it just seem 'cleaner'. I personally hate virus programs as their just a money grab and if i have a virus on my computer (never happens) then i like to know its gone.

I never leave an XP install on my computer for over 3 weeks because i just dont like cluttered files and you notice it starting slow a little. 3 weeks might be a bit excessive but i've more or less got the whole install thing down-pat and when i enter a fresh windows i can have everything reinstalled and running in under 15 mins. I'd advise people who want the best performance to reinstall every 3 or 4 weeks or so, and keep a backup drive with all the programs they need to reinstall. For people who arent overly obsessed with every little bit of speed and have good organising skills, leaving an install on for a long time is probably better.

Clients as you say, would need to have their installs remain intact, because of files. But for people at home its different. Most people on here are out for every last drop of speed they can get, so its not suprising.

Side Note: Win 98SE is OMG wow cool cause you can use ChangeSpeed

Q F BLOODY T!

if ive got a virus, i will reformat. something's wrong with my computer and i cant be bothered to attempt to fix it, i will reformat. new drivers come out, i will reformat. its just soo easy. hell i dont even activate windows anymore. i figure 30 days with one install is fine by me.

 

[Monkey34]

3 weeks?! Oh brother.
Look, Phaedrus, I agree 110%. If you are aware of whats going on in your system, PREVENTIVE MAINTENENCE is whats needed, not reformating all the fragging time.
A reformat is "in" now like MMORGs..........wait I love MMORGs..........oh well, you get the point.

 

[The Bryophyte]

Wow, I'm a repair tech like Phaerus and the first two responses are really surprising to me. Don't you guys ever use any REAL programs? Big games, dreamweaver, office, quickbooks, CAD, these kinds of things make constant reformats ridiculous. I think that the average user from the hardforum who ASKS for advice on how to fix their xp install has this type of stuff loaded and is not interested in reloading everything.

While a format always does the trick, it is a real bitch for the average user to do if they actually do productive work on their computer.

 

[djnes]

If you leave common sense out of the equation, reformatting is a bitch. I on the other hand use Norton Ghost to lay down a clean image within minutes. I don't do it to solve problems....as I can fix any problem that my arise on my system. I do it because I install and uninstall a lot of software that I am testing or trying. Until Windows or the programmers can make uninstalls work better, this will alsways be a necessity.

Some of us swap out hardware quite often that does require a total rebuild, like a motherboard. I upgrade my motherboard every 6 months....so I do a clean install at that point. I do NOT rebuild for a new video card or something of that nature. I also do some benchmarking and testing that for integrity purposes, requires a clean image and build. I have my work laptop for e-mail and such. My home PC is for tinkering.

Lastly, why did yuo think it was necessary to start a thread on this? Who the F cares if someone else wants to rebuild a system? It's not hurting you any. In most cases, it's a good way to clean up many system problems at once. When you start over, you can implement good preventative maintenance practices that maybe you didn't do before! I can tell your knowledgeable, so I think your best bet is to offer people help, and not start threads putting them down for their user habits.

 

[Tordek]

Don't you guys ever use any REAL programs? Big games, dreamweaver, office, quickbooks, CAD, these kinds of things make constant reformats ridiculous.

Most of us dont really use that kind of stuff in our home PCs. I like to tinker with my home setup ive gained a lot knowledge from this...

I think i can handle most problems that might arise on my xp install but there are sometimes that i just think, WTF, lets reinstall while SNL is on...

Of course when something hits my pc and i have no fucking clue of what happened i research and find a solution for it. Most of us here do this...

Its just so much fun to format and reinstall xp sometimes... Its the new pc "placebo effect"


Though i agree that some people are really clueless about solving problems with their install and the first answer they get is to reinstall the fucking thing... Most IT ""professionals"" ive seen do it.

 

[lomn75]

I'm with the OP on this, mostly.

By and large, I don't care what you do with your own machine. However, when someone asks for help with a home machine, the knee-jerk "format! format! format!!!!1112" is not needed.

Corporate environment? Sure. Virus-laden hellhole that can't boot? OK. IE crashed this morning? Give me a break. As I posted a few days ago (again, consider the context I've established)

Yes, formatting is the last refuge of the desperate. It's also the first refuge of the stupid.

 

[GreNME]

I can't believe no one has pointed this out:

You have to admit though, reinstalling solves the problem doesnt it?

NO, IT DOESN'T

Reinstalling is admitting you haven't the knowledge to fix the damage, and that tossing away your progress on that install and starting fresh is the only thing you know how to do. Interestingly, it reminds me of an old parody done of Apple users, where fixing or slowness is no problem: just toss the old into the trash and get a new one. You may not be spending the cash for a whole new rig when you reformat/reinstall, but you're using the same methods that people have been teasing Mac users for years about (though I know plenty of Mac users who could fix a broken install of their OS with no worries).

In other words, it's not only lazy, but it's admitting defeat and ignorance. Congratulations.

Now, to move on:

Originally Posted by The Bryophyte
Don't you guys ever use any REAL programs? Big games, dreamweaver, office, quickbooks, CAD, these kinds of things make constant reformats ridiculous.

Most of us dont really use that kind of stuff in our home PCs. I like to tinker with my home setup ive gained a lot knowledge from this...

Actually, most home users have quickbooks, some kind of office suite, usually some consumer-level image manipulation (Jasc PSP instead of Adobe PS, for example), and other programs that they use on a regular basis. Hell, a lot of people even go to their local Staples, Best Buy, or Frys and get other programs—otherwise, selling such software would be a dead business.

These people store files all over the place on their computer, and for a great deal of them, asking what directories they stored their information on is like asking an infant to define the physical properties of his pacifier in Latin. Not that most users are as stupid as babies—though a lot of people love to think of those who don't spend hours on a computer playing games or surfing the net as mentally inferior to them—but asking someone who is a user of the technology about stuff like where and how it is stored is often like speaking a different language to them. You may as well be asking them to read Swahili.

So the original statement by The Bryophyte was correct: it is insane to have to deal with reinstalling all of those programs and getting things set back up instead of actually fixing the problem to begin with.

Though i agree that some people are really clueless about solving problems with their install and the first answer they get is to reinstall the fucking thing... Most IT ""professionals"" ive seen do it.

And those IT "professionals" need to be kicked in the balls for giving us real techs a bad name. Doing something that a user could do their damn self is not worth the money those "experts" charge to begin with. These are the new snake oil salesmen.

 

[pandora's box]

Wow, I'm a repair tech like Phaerus and the first two responses are really surprising to me. Don't you guys ever use any REAL programs? Big games, dreamweaver, office, quickbooks, CAD, these kinds of things make constant reformats ridiculous. I think that the average user from the hardforum who ASKS for advice on how to fix their xp install has this type of stuff loaded and is not interested in reloading everything.

While a format always does the trick, it is a real bitch for the average user to do if they actually do productive work on their computer.

i dont use my desktop for productive work. however my laptop has quicken microsoft office documents. would take forever to backup all that stuff. hasnt been reformatted in like 2 years.

 

[insanarchist]

Personally, I agree with the "no need to reformat for every stinkin' problem" crowd. If you know what you're doing, you can fix almost any XP install within a couple of hours without all of the hassle of backing up the client's stuff, trying to find the stupid install CD's for every program, having to re-download drivers when they can't find the CD's, dealing with the headaches of re-fine-tuning every little program, etc, etc, etc. (This is, of course, mostly with client computers, not our own).

However, I do re-install Windows every 6-8 months or so, just because my usage can change that quickly and I really don't like all of those extra registry entries for all of those old programs I tried and didn't like, or no longer use, etc. Of course, I'm typing from FC2 right now, as I finally got fed up with XP, so we will see how that works out!

 

[PikachuMan]

In other words, it's not only lazy, but it's admitting defeat and ignorance. Congratulations.

Eh?
Well you go on "fighting the good fight", I have a computer to use, if a reformat is the quickest way to get it working, I'll use it.

Reinstalling will usually clear up any traces of what's gone wrong before, even if it doesn't, It's a huge advantage being able to eliminate old software/drivers that may have caused conflicts.

 

[Phoenix86]

I tend to agree with you Phaedrus, my W2K box has been running for close to 3 years. I think the problem lies in how people are using their machines. Loading every application they find just to see what it's about, tested 30 different version of drivers, etc.

GreNME, admiting defeat is sometimes smart. Do you really think you know everything about the OS? There are simply times where the problem is not worth learning and a reinstall is a better option. In other words, the opportunity cost of learning is higher than reinstall. However, that vastly depends on how long it take to reload. For example, if you have a nice setup with ghost, you don't really lose a whole lot to reload, and it can literaly take an hour, maybe minutes to get EVERYTHING back in place.

However, that truely requires an image. Those that day "it only takes a couple hours to reinstall" are generally VERY wrong.

Between Installing the OS, SPs, post SP patches, apps, apps patches, configuration of the OS, you have easily spent 4 hours. That doesn't even count user data, which may also be on the volume...

 

[valkyre]

Reformatting takes about 25-30 minutes on my system.

Hooray for unattended CDs.

 

[GreNME]

Eh?
Well you go on "fighting the good fight", I have a computer to use, if a reformat is the quickest way to get it working, I'll use it.

Reinstalling will usually clear up any traces of what's gone wrong before, even if it doesn't, It's a huge advantage being able to eliminate old software/drivers that may have caused conflicts.

Reformatting is not the quickest way for those of us who use their computers as something more than a game console/internet machine. And I can assure you that people who are in the same situation as I far outnumber those who are in yours.

I have nearly 10 GB of programs installed on my machine, and I use a majority of them on a regular basis. This isn't counting the personal data being used by those programs, just the programs themselves. The data is well into the hundreds of gigabytes by now (at least, the stuff that isn't kept on my file server, which weighs in at close to half a terrabyte).

The quickest way to eliminate those old drivers is to uninstall them before installing new drivers. Installing driver over driver over driver is sloppy and self-defeating no matter what system you use, if only because it takes up unnecessary space.

GreNME, admiting defeat is sometimes smart. Do you really think you know everything about the OS? There are simply times where the problem is not worth learning and a reinstall is a better option. In other words, the opportunity cost of learning is higher than reinstall. However, that vastly depends on how long it take to reload. For example, if you have a nice setup with ghost, you don't really lose a whole lot to reload, and it can literaly take an hour, maybe minutes to get EVERYTHING back in place.

Oh, you definitely have a point, but your point here is far more applicable in a company than it is in the home. How many people would you really expect to make a full image of their install before going about their business with a computer? Isn't this why the big names have made recovery CDs to begin with, since Joe Average is not likely to take such steps?

Remember: regular users do not need to be skilled techs in order to be a user. Hell, if you ask me, a lot of those who think they're "skilled" are really no more than a user who knows what warez sites to go download Tool A™, double-click, and expect it to do the job for them.

So no, I don't know everything about the OS. However, when it comes to keeping it clean of constant installed/uninstalled programs, unnecessary drivers, and silly little errata that can tend to slow a computer down, I know those pretty well. I've been making it a hobby to learn to look not only in the places those double-click-n-run "cleanup tools" look, but also finding the more obscure and unrelated places to look for problems. The results have been astounding and have worked consistently. On top of that, it's given me chances to learn not only about how the OS works internally, but it also provides insight into how a lot of the programs that run in the OS work internally.

For anyone who claims to be an "enthusiast," even if you don't do IT work for a living, this sort of thing is the best education you can get.

I have managed to keep installs counted by years instead of months from doing this. These are my workstations and laptops at home, not just streamlining and keeping safe the systems of my clients.

Interestingly enough, I'm finding that just like when you look into "hacker" circles you get a delineation of the skiddies and the real coders, on the subject of reformatting or cleaning a system that a similar line of thinking separates two groups—the ones who actually go in there and deal with things manually, learning and solving problems, and the ones who can't really do anything more than run tools created by other people.

 

[djnes]

GreNME, the only point about what your saying I disagree with is where you mention about drivers..where if your upgrading, you just remove them. In theory your correct, but many hardware companies write shitty drivers that don't uninstall very well. The same goes for software. Sometimes, the uninstall, doesn't completely remove it. I myself know how to maintain XP and repair it, so often that's better for me to do. I have an Omnibook 6100 that hasn't been rebuilt in years, that I use every single day for work. I agree learning to troubleshoot is far more important than learning to re-install. Sometimes however, it takes as much time to troubleshoot, as it does to do a complete format, especially if there isn't any data to back up. It's not always an option, but it is a viable option.

 

[PikachuMan]

Reformatting is not the quickest way for those of us who use their computers as something more than a game console/internet machine. And I can assure you that people who are in the same situation as I far outnumber those who are in yours.

When did gaming/internet users become a minority?
It gets the job done for us, if you're speaking for some other group, go ahead, but don't go on a rant about how "ignorant" or "self defeating" reinstalling is.

The quickest way to eliminate those old drivers is to uninstall them before installing new drivers. Installing driver over driver over driver is sloppy and self-defeating no matter what system you use, if only because it takes up unnecessary space.

Ever heard of Murphy's law? Eventually something will break in your system, no matter how good practice you use. It is just not that simple or practical to sit there and troubleshoot everything, starting over with a fresh install is much cleaner and productive sometimes.

 

[GreNME]

When did gaming/internet users become a minority?

What planet do you live on that you think PC gamers are somehow the majority of PC users. I have a news flash for you: gamers aren't even the majority not counting businesses.

It gets the job done for us, if you're speaking for some other group, go ahead, but don't go on a rant about how "ignorant" or "self defeating" reinstalling is.

Throwing the whole computer away and buying a new one gets the job done too, but it doesn't solve the problem. If you want to brag about avoidance, feel free. Don't try to pawn it off as a solution.

Ever heard of Murphy's law? Eventually something will break in your system, no matter how good practice you use. It is just not that simple or practical to sit there and troubleshoot everything, starting over with a fresh install is much cleaner and productive sometimes.

Ever hear the old saying that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure? Maybe if you learned how to set things up and progress right from the start then perhaps Murphy wouldn't be kicking you in the balls and requiring you to reformat every time you have a teensy little driver problem.

Like I said, when you want to learn solutions, you do it right. When you want to learn avoidance, you simply make sure you never have to actually deal with the problem.

I love it. I get to clean up after shitty techs who think like that all the time. You guys give me job security.

 

[mosin]

I agree with those who see others who reformat in a bad light. It does reflect ignorance, and the inherent lack of necessary skills to maintain/fix the system. I have a Win98 install that is still intact. That machine was formatted in November of 1997. XP is so easy that I can't conceive of a reason to reformat it, short of a hardware failure on some rig that isn't backed up...and that's another thread.

 

[Monkey34]

Ever hear the old saying that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure? Maybe if you learned how to set things up and progress right from the start then perhaps Murphy wouldn't be kicking you in the balls and requiring you to reformat every time you have a teensy little driver problem.

ROTFL
Whew.......oh boy........((wipes tears from eyes))........
Like I said, preventive maintenance. I've got a XP system going for almost 4 years now. Only had a driver bsod me, but fixed it since.

 

[tenken]

I agree that reformatting is usually overkill for most Windows problems, but you have to admit sometimes running all the virus and spyware scans in the world won't fix a hosed system. Since most people can't figure out how to use the repair console, I've found that doing a repair install is probably the better option. It doesn't take as much time as a full reinstall, and doesn't lose any program or user settings. It simply deletes all the system files and restores them to their original state.

For those who don't know how to perform one of these check out the instructions a t the bottom of this page.

 

[mosin]

I agree that reformatting is usually overkill for most Windows problems, but you have to admit sometimes running all the virus and spyware scans in the world won't fix a hosed system. Since most people can't figure out how to use the repair console, I've found that doing a repair install is probably the better option. It doesn't take as much time as a full reinstall, and doesn't lose any program or user settings. It simply deletes all the system files and restores them to their original state.

For those who don't know how to perform one of these check out the instructions a t the bottom of this page.

True, but if sys.config gets hosed, for example, you had better have all the command lines written down someplace because a repair install won't cut it. Generally speaking, you are right, however.