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Amazon’s Ring to partner with Flock, a network of AI cameras used by ICE, feds, and police

kirbyrj said:
Oh yes the Constitution. I'm guessing you have a novel interpretation of the Fourth amendment which invalidates Flock cameras along with some random YouTube video by some non-constitutional scholar "proving" your point.
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Hmm yes, it YouTube video therefore it's invalid argument. To put it simply, it breaks 4th amendment rights because it's a warrantless search. BUT!!!, because Flock is a private company then that doesn't apply to Flock. Except Flock is being used by the government so it should apply to Flock. If you can track my movement and issue tickets based on AI footage then that's circumventing the 4th amendment. Of course you can interpret this how you want, but it just seems like warrantless search without a warrant. If you can issue fines and arrests using Flock then it's a warrantless search.

Here's another YouTube video so it's obviously just some group of nobodies that nobody should listen too. Stupid ass NBC news.

View: https://youtu.be/1DUCg50fKQ8?si=FOcgrCB8TCPMFInY
 
DukenukemX said:
To put it simply, it breaks 4th amendment rights because it's a warrantless search. BUT!!!, because Flock is a private company then that doesn't apply to Flock. Except Flock is being used by the government so it should apply to Flock. If you can track my movement and issue tickets based on AI footage then that's circumventing the 4th amendment.
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that seem a bit simplistic, supreme court precendant wise at least.

Millions of warrantless search are made in the US airports every year, there is some test used a big one is person subjective expectation of privacy, the exterior of your car on public road... expectation of privacy is extremelly low, that why usage of camera looking at cars as been legal, police radar use and a long list.

How does the flok camera looking at your car speed any different than a police doing it with a radar (without asking for a warrant before doing so) ? And how is it a search ?

Court precendant that you no expectation of privacy about your car license plate is well establish and obvious (the law force it to be visible and being read without warrant/permission is the only reason they exist) same for the exterior of your cars movement on public road, tourist can film you, traffic cam can film, trucker can have dash cam filming you.

The non visible from the window interior of your car that a different story.

I really doubt a private company can search a citizen private property without permission anything a governement cannot because of the 4th... Company can search company cars, computers, desk, used by an employee too, but that would be true for state employees has well.

DukenukemX said:
Stupid ass NBC news
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The video you posted you did not watched, the video say that according to courts that there is no reasonable expectation of privacy and a federal judge rules in favor of them (not infriging the 4th) and that law professor feel the appeal will fail they are not a violation of the 4th they need a different angle, I feel you go with title and do not read article or watch video you post very much ?

cellphone data, gps tracker that a stronger case than the exterior appearance of your car and license plate on public road.
 
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LukeTbk said:
Millions of warrantless search are made in the US airports every year, there is some test used a big one is person subjective expectation of privacy, the exterior of your car on public road... expectation of privacy is extremelly low, that why usage of camera looking at cars as been legal, police radar use and a long list.
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Warrantless searches of any kind breaks the constitution, and because it's been done at airports for a while doesn't make it right. It seems the logic here is that if we're doing something wrong for years, then the new wrong must be right?
How does the flok camera looking at your car speed any different than a police doing it with a radar (without asking for a warrant before doing so) ? And how is it a search ?
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The police officer was present and witness to speeding, while a Flock camera uses AI that sometimes thinks glue can be used to hold cheese down in pizza. Not to forget, it's holding a data base of footage which can be used against you.
I really doubt a private company can search a citizen private property without permission anything a governement cannot because of the 4th... Company can search company cars, computers, desk, used by an employee too, but that would be true for state employees has well.
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Except the people are not employees to Flock.
The video you posted you did not watched, the video say that according to courts that there is no reasonable expectation of privacy and a federal judge rules in favor of them (not infriging the 4th) and that law professor feel the appeal will fail they are not a violation of the 4th they need a different angle, I feel you go with title and do not read article or watch video you post very much ?
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Keep in mind that court case is being appealed. I'm not even sure what you're saying because on one hand you said you did not watch the video, but then began to cite things from said video? What law professor thinks the appeal will fail? Chester Fernadez? He didn't say anything like that.
 
DukenukemX said:
Warrantless searches of any kind breaks the constitution,
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of course not, the text is extremelly clear:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated

I.e. if you look like very much like you have a gun, during your arrestation a police can search and seize it, without needing a warrant and waiting for it, because it is judge reasonable, same for the airports search a long list of reasonable case for a search or seizure without warrant exist as the constitution clearly permit it.

DukenukemX said:
The police officer was present and witness to speeding, while a Flock camera uses AI that sometimes thinks glue can be used to hold cheese down in pizza. Not to forget, it's holding a data base of footage which can be used against you.
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It is quite legal for them to radar any car going throught, it can be automated and always on like a dash cam in their cars, it can be a bit funny being a passenger in a cop car and looking at it going on, lot of people break on sight.
https://stalkerradar.com/police-radar/dsr/
The Stalker DSR police radar can detect and accurately track vehicles from over a mile away. The DSR’s exceptional range on the highway lets you know what’s up ahead long before anyone even knows you’re around.

Photo radar have been going on for a long time, they look at every car.

DukenukemX said:
Except the people are not employees to Flock.
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sure and flock cannot more than the goverment search or seize peopel private property when any subjective expectation of privacy exist and without permissions.

DukenukemX said:
Keep in mind that court case is being appealed. I'm not even sure what you're saying because on one hand you said you did not watch the video, but then began to cite things from said video? What law professor thinks the appeal will fail? Chester Fernadez? He didn't say anything like that.
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Yes I cite the video that clearly claim that judge and professor laws say that flock camera does not break the 4th amendtements and I claim that you did not watch it because I understood you claim ABC news implied that flock camera was breaking the 4th amendtment. Who did not say anything like that ? the abc "journalist" speaking say the law professor said that there is strong precedant of no subjective expectation of privacy for your license plate or what your car do on public road.

This seem something you need a law to ban (and that easy to do) instead of relying on the constitution.
 
LukeTbk said:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated
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Tracking your every movement is as far from reasonable without a warrant as it possibly can be. What one judge or professor says is not fact it is just their opinion and they are wrong AF. They probably don't even fully understand the tech behind AI connected cameras, and the scope of surveilance that is done with them. "You can't even take a breath of fresh air without us knowing" - said the cop to the innocent woman who they accused of theft based on nothing else but her vehicle's route based on flock cameras. Does this sound reasonable to you?
 
At what point is it too far then? should your every action be monitored incase you make any legal infraction no matter how small and be sent a fine? Eventually it will be argued that cameras can watch into your windows. Since they aren't actually doing anything inside your house, just capturing photons outside of your house. Just to make sure you aren't breaking laws from inside as well.
 
LukeTbk said:
I.e. if you look like very much like you have a gun, during your arrestation a police can search and seize it, without needing a warrant and waiting for it, because it is judge reasonable, same for the airports search a long list of reasonable case for a search or seizure without warrant exist as the constitution clearly permit it.
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And people wonder why there's a growing tend to defund the police. By defund I mean fund less.
Yes I cite the video that clearly claim that judge and professor laws say that flock camera does not break the 4th amendtements
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If there's an appeal then the judge's verdict is not final.
and I claim that you did not watch it because I understood you claim ABC news
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NBC news...
Who did not say anything like that ? the abc "journalist"
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NBC news...
This seem something you need a law to ban (and that easy to do) instead of relying on the constitution.
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We just need to enforce the constitution, because this clearly goes beyond Flock. Making individual laws means there's going to be loop holes that will be used.
 
M76 said:
Tracking your every movement is as far from reasonable without a warrant as it possibly can be. What one judge or professor says is not fact it is just their opinion and they are wrong AF. They probably don't even fully understand the tech behind AI connected cameras, and the scope of surveilance that is done with them. "You can't even take a breath of fresh air without us knowing" - said the cop to the innocent woman who they accused of theft based on nothing else but her vehicle's route based on flock cameras. Does this sound reasonable to you?
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I'm sure the people in swimsuits have nothing to fear. I wonder why nobody is swimming?
 
M76 said:
Tracking your every movement is as far from reasonable without a warrant as it possibly can be. What one judge or professor says is not fact it is just their opinion and they are wrong AF. They probably don't even fully understand the tech behind AI connected cameras, and the scope of surveilance that is done with them. "You can't even take a breath of fresh air without us knowing" - said the cop to the innocent woman who they accused of theft based on nothing else but her vehicle's route based on flock cameras. Does this sound reasonable to you?
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yes that a much better angle than the getting a ticket for speeding on a public road being inconsitutional if a photo radar used an AI instead of an human to read the plate number(which as a long track and tested record) or the idea a cop need a warrant to read a car license plate number or probable cause/warrant to radar an vehicle speed on a public road.

Using a national network to track individual movement is different than simply filming car, analysing their speed and sending ticket reading their plate if they went over the limit, different than reading all plates and rising and issue startign to track those with open warrants/stolen car has well.

Making the tool exist can be seen as dangerous and almost certain to eventually break the constitution, so going ahead before it happen and making a laws to make them illegal is not a bad idea, but people will love lower car insurance and crime down since 2023 figures... which are really impressive and can be an hard sales.
 
LukeTbk said:
yes that a much better angle than the getting a ticket for speeding on a public road being inconsitutional if a photo radar used an AI instead of an human to read the plate number(which as a long track and tested record) or the idea a cop need a warrant to read a car license plate number or probable cause/warrant to radar an vehicle speed on a public road.
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Actual automated license plate readers have existed long before AI cameras, they are not the same thing, no matter how desperately flcok axon palantir and their shills try to convince you it's just an ALPR camera. It's not. an ALPR is just a camera with OCR, nothing more. Their AI camera is connected to the servers of a private company that is indiscriminately cataloging everything it sees, which later can be accessed and searched by anyone they chose to give access to without a warrant. I think it is illegal surveillance even if it is not used, warrant or no warrant. The warrant should exist before you start surveiling the person, getting one after the fact should not make the previous recordings legal or admissible. That's what I think.
LukeTbk said:
Using a national network to track individual movement is different than simply filming car, analysing their speed and sending ticket reading their plate if they went over the limit, different than reading all plates and rising and issue startign to track those with open warrants/stolen car has well.
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AI Cameras already do all of that. Just because it hasn't been used against you yet doesn't mean your movements aren't recorded and saved even if you have no warrant.
LukeTbk said:
Making the tool exist can be seen as dangerous and almost certain to eventually break the constitution, so going ahead before it happen and making a laws to make them illegal is not a bad idea, but people will love lower car insurance and crime down since 2023 figures... which are really impressive and can be an hard sales.
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The tools existence already breaks the constitution. There is zero evidence that AI cameras lower insurance costs or crime. If anything they will be used to increase your insurance, if you frequent bad neighborhoods, if it isn't already. Like GM selling throttle position sensor and brake force data to insurance companies.
 
I see it no different than a light pole setting on right of way land that was (only) given to your local government to access for water mains and roads, signs, how can a private company like Duke Power Energy use that right of way land (rent free) to house a light pole and then keep going up on your light bill is the real question, all those light poles need to be owned by the landowner it's setting on if the local government does not own them like public works, the private company needs to start paying rent to the landowner of the right of way.
 
M76 said:
The tools existence already breaks the constitution. There is zero evidence that AI cameras lower insurance costs or crime. If anything they will be used to increase your insurance, if you frequent bad neighborhoods, if it isn't already. Like GM selling throttle position sensor and brake force data to insurance companies.
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It could be hard, but the sentiment that the timing is related will be there, so many flock and ring cameras around making not getting caught harder and harder:

HQfSAGZXcAAVq8_?format=jpg&name=medium.jpg


The intuition would be strong that of course it does, if something follow all cars at all time that car stealing would go down...

M76 said:
Actual automated license plate readers have existed long before AI cameras,
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And automated license plate reader was using machine learning, not sure where and how the distinction/line will be made here. Character recognition was deep neural net AI, that why they can work with dirty plate, any angle, shadows, partial obstruction and so on.

There could very well be a lot of constitutionally shady stuff (if the system has the ability to predict who cheating with who for example, that something regular adult would assume privacy from the state), the part about looking at plate of speeding vehicle and sending ticket to the owner has been tested a lot already and has you are pointing out absolutely not new.
 
LukeTbk said:
It could be hard, but the sentiment that the timing is related will be there, so many flock and ring cameras around making not getting caught harder and harder:
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It's also caused a lot of false arrests as seen in this video. And yes, his video title is click baitie but has a lot of mentions of people who've been wronged. Stuff even I didn't know. The part where the guy says Flock doesn't use AI but machine learning. These people think we're stupid.

View: https://youtu.be/fn9zmjosmUU?si=4xp1prQgjVYausuB
 
Some months ago Benn Jordan did a video on how he was able to access the flock cameras by just guessing a password. He did two videos, about 6 months ago I think, one is pretty short.

I haven't watched either one yet, just saw them this morning.
 
LukeTbk said:
It could be hard, but the sentiment that the timing is related will be there, so many flock and ring cameras around making not getting caught harder and harder:

View attachment 821894
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I always find those charts funny. Lots of random years being compared with no data from the previous 5-10 years to know if it is trending better or worse. They always twist the data into whatever pretzel it takes to make their point.
 
LukeTbk said:
Not so long ago, lot of people were saying AI was just a new buzz marketing word for Machine learning and neural network ;)
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Exactly. It's like saying an engine is not the same as a motor or a hood is not the same as a bonnet.
 
LukeTbk said:
It could be hard, but the sentiment that the timing is related will be there, so many flock and ring cameras around making not getting caught harder and harder:
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Not getting caught was always hard, the only difference is how fast they are getting caught. And if the "price" of having them caught faster is an epidemic of innocent people being falsely molested and jailed by police, then I don't think it is worth paying. I think the petty criminal being at large for a few weeks longer is preferable to innocent people constantly being caught in the net. Because make no mistake, they are rarely using flock to capture people who are a clear and present danger, they use it to make policing petty crimes easier.
LukeTbk said:
The intuition would be strong that of course it does, if something follow all cars at all time that car stealing would go down...
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Or go up, because criminals will switch cars more and more often.
LukeTbk said:
And automated license plate reader was using machine learning, not sure where and how the distinction/line will be made here. Character recognition was deep neural net AI, that why they can work with dirty plate, any angle, shadows, partial obstruction and so on.
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Are you trying to be disingenuous because this seems more than simply being misguided. How can you equate using machine learning in the training of the OCR software that does nothing but recognize characters on pictures. To an always on surveillance network that tracks everyone everywhere at all times, and can be used without a warrant to see if you took a shit last tuesday, because the roll disappeared that day, so it must've been you flock said so.
LukeTbk said:
There could very well be a lot of constitutionally shady stuff (if the system has the ability to predict who cheating with who for example, that something regular adult would assume privacy from the state),
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No, any citizen not just regular adults, whatever that distinction is supposed to mean has a right not to be tracked and the tracking data stored without a signed warrant backed up by probable cause. You pass by a drug house every day to work, the system will still flag you as a potential drug offender. IDK how can you not see how bad this is, and it is only going to get worse as the network is expanded or god forbid connected between districts or states.
LukeTbk said:
the part about looking at plate of speeding vehicle and sending ticket to the owner has been tested a lot already and has you are pointing out absolutely not new.
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And it is perfectly constitutional, stop trying to equate speed cameras to whatever flock is.
 
M76 said:
Not getting caught was always hard, the only difference is how fast they are getting caught. And if the "price" of having them caught faster is an epidemic of innocent people being falsely molested and jailed by police, then I don't think it is worth paying. I think the petty criminal being at large for a few weeks longer is preferable to innocent people constantly being caught in the net. Because make no mistake, they are rarely using flock to capture people who are a clear and present danger, they use it to make policing petty crimes easier.
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It is absolutely correct that more surveillance makes catching criminals easier. The problem is the consequences of that, as you said. I mean, that road doesn't have an end really. Catching criminals would also be easier if we were implanted with chips at birth that tracked our location every second of every day. Catching criminals and solving crimes would be easier if we all had cameras in our homes monitoring us 24/7. Make it real easy to provide who killed who if you have video of everything everyone does 24/7/365. The problem is, of course, that most sane people realize that the government can't be trusted with all this information which is why no sane person wants 24/7 surveillance of their whole life.

A certain amount of surveillance around government buildings is understood and acceptable for most people. A speed camera in a high accident area? I don't think most people would blink. Same with red light cameras in intersections that have a high incidence of running red lights and causing accidents. I doubt most people would worry too much about that. Cameras everywhere, all the time? Yeah, they can bugger right off. At that point you're not dealing with a specific problem but gathering tons of data on your citizens "just in case". Solve the crimes that happen, not surveil us all in case we do something bad. Because, again, that roads leads to having access to everything we do or say 24/7/365. Your phone's data will be stream to the government along with full video of your house and some folks will be standing there idiotically saying "if you have nothing to hide ....".
 
M76 said:
No, any citizen not just regular adults
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Laws of the type; expected privacy never use any.... you go with reasonable average adult type of criteria.

M76 said:
IDK how can you not see how bad this is
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I never said anything about anything regarding flock camera tracking and data, my only comments were made about someone saying that it was breaking the 4th amendtment to calculate all vehicle speed going on a public road and read the camera plate to send a ticket in case of speeding, which is quite different and has been tested a lot. Or someone saying that any search withoiut a warrant is obviously illegal to do (as if a cop arresting someone of a violent crime would need to wait with a judge on the phone before searching for a weapon and wait again to seize it, or that search at custom, people visiting prison, etc... cannot be made withoiut warrants).

I am quite litteral in my comments, there is no need to infer more than what they litteraly say.

M76 said:
How can you equate using machine learning in the training of the OCR software that does nothing but recognize characters on pictures. To an always on surveillance network that tracks everyone everywhere at all times, and can be used without a warrant to see if you took a shit last tuesday, because the roll disappeared that day, so it must've been you flock said so.
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Never did, just responded to a point being made (and having AI or not in the toolchain is some important part of the debate or new....)

M76 said:
And it is perfectly constitutional, stop trying to equate speed cameras to whatever flock is.
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Not me doing it, I was purely responding to someone callign speed camera unconstitutional if they read the plate and send ticket.
 
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