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RTX 5090 FE Molten 12VHPWR

littlegreenmenfromhome said:
Failure rate data numbers?

Still no numbers.

It is becoming quite the trend in this thread
Click to expand...

Putting you on ignore is also becoming a trend in this thread.

Defending this connecter as a good thing for the industry because you like Nvidia is not a good choice. Pushing that kind of amperage that a 5090 and 4090 can draw is a recipe for disaster. So while you want to say no one can prove why it's a bad design, you have not proven why it's a good design either.
 
Gideon said:
Putting you on ignore is also becoming a trend in this thread.

Defending this connecter as a good thing for the industry because you like Nvidia is not a good choice. Pushing that kind of amperage that a 5090 and 4090 can draw is a recipe for disaster. So while you want to say no one can prove why it's a bad design, you have not proven why it's a good design either.
Click to expand...

Is it really a bad design if it works fine over 99% of the time? It could definitely be worse, much worse.
 
sharknice said:
Is it really a bad design if it works fine over 99% of the time? It could definitely be worse, much worse.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I saw a news article about the rma rate of Nvidia's gpus... They were below averages at about 1% for all defects, while most parts have a 2-3% rma rate from what I have gathered over the years.
 
sharknice said:
Is it really a bad design if it works fine over 99% of the time? It could definitely be worse, much worse.
Click to expand...
350W and less the connection works fine since there is enough leeway that if there is poor power distribution between the cables it won’t end in catastrophic failure. So 5070ti and down you won’t have issues. Once it goes above 400w is when you start running into issues (5080, 5090, 9070 Xt) especially the 5090 which runs right up against the wall providing zero safety margin.

The only reason I can see why people would defend this lack of safety margin is that they are financially invested in Nvidia or suffer from over zealous brand loyalty.
 
sharknice said:
Is it really a bad design if it works fine over 99% of the time? It could definitely be worse, much worse.
Click to expand...
Since when is saying "things could be worse" a valid defense for bad decisions? You use that phrase when you're trying to make the best out of a bad situation. Unless you are implying the 12v-2x6 is a bad situation, in which case I agree.
 
littlegreenmenfromhome said:
Jon Peddie Reserch data is not some secret, unlike your ficticious numbers:

NVIDIA consumer desktop GPU shipments per quarter
From Jon Peddie Research (AIB market):
https://www.jonpeddie.com/news/q425...-11-million-units-with-a-cagr-to-2029-of-5-9/

Total AIB market: ~11–12 million units per quarter

NVIDIA share: 92–94%

NVIDIA consumer desktop GPUs per quarter:
→ ≈ 10–12 million units

NVIDIA GPUs useing 12VHPWR / 12V‑2×6
Ada (40‑series):
RTX 4090
RTX 4080 / 4080 Super
RTX 4070 Ti / 4070 Ti Super
RTX 4070 / 4070 Super
Blackwell (50‑series):
RTX 5090
RTX 5080
(Likely) RTX 5070 Ti / 5070

These models represent ~25–30% of NVIDIA’s total consumer desktop shipments.
The rest are 4060/4060 Ti/4050 OEM units using PCIe 8‑pin.

Here are some numbers:
https://videocardz.com/newz/inno3d-...hpwr-rmas-across-europe-since-rtx-4090-launch
https://www.pcworld.com/article/137...-geforce-rtx-4090-12vhpwr-cables-melting.html


Now i predict you come with ZERO data and will just cry, please prove my point :)
Click to expand...
What you refuse to accept is that Nvidia has absolutely no desire to reveal any real “numbers” to the public.

Simply because they don’t want a repeat of the “1080 Ti” situation.
The connector is designed to degrade and burn out completely after a few years of use, so it fails under prolonged/intense load after a short time or may last the warranty period under light/infrequent load.
What you can see/check is the repair rate for the 4090 or the connector replacement rate at service centers, and the rate is huge at just “450 W.” But again, there are no summarized figures, and that’s exactly what Nvidia is after.

And again, you don’t have the numbers you’re looking for, and they will never be shown because this is evidence for a class-action lawsuit against Nvidia—they won’t work against themselves. Only a leak of internal information can reveal the real numbers.
 
AVATARAT said:
There’s nothing to believe here—the problem started with the RTX 3000 series and is getting worse with every new generation. There’s plenty of information about these issues.
If Nvidia wanted to, they could fix it, but I’m not sure they have any desire to do so.
Click to expand...
You’re right they could fix it, but I’ll stand by my comment as there are too many outside variables to take into account like user error, and poorly made cables being the main culprits. I’ve owned many cards from the 30, 40, and 50 series and haven’t had an issue. Again the connector can be improved and there is no doubt there but there are a lot of people that built computers during the pandemic that never built them before and then you have the millennial mindset of I built one and now I’m an expert..😂
 
AVATARAT said:
And again, you don’t have the numbers you’re looking for, and they will never be shown because this is evidence for a class-action lawsuit against Nvidia—they won’t work against themselves. Only a leak of internal information can reveal the real numbers.
Click to expand...

People need to stop tossing around guess numbers as fact then. I don't like the design as an engineer but if we don't have data to say how often it is actually failing because of the connector design then all we can say is that we don't like it and that they're pushing the edge of the spec. The problem is people want to use numbers because it gives more gravitas to their statements and then people challenge those numbers and down the rabbit hole of this argument we go.
 
Ididar said:
People need to stop tossing around guess numbers as fact then. I don't like the design as an engineer but if we don't have data to say how often it is actually failing because of the connector design then all we can say is that we don't like it and that they're pushing the edge of the spec. The problem is people want to use numbers because it gives more gravitas to their statements and then people challenge those numbers and down the rabbit hole of this argument we go.
Click to expand...
I agree with that—we don’t have any data, so we can only make assumptions.

But look, there are some studies (not related to this topic) that show that copper corrosion is at its highest around 70 °C. And guess what—that’s the temperature of the connector during normal operation...

This research investigated copper corrosion over a two-year period at three temperatures: 30°C, 70°C, and 90°C. The results showed that at 30°C, the corrosion layer on copper was approximately 0.6 μm thick, while at 70°C, it increased to 1.7 μm. However, at 90°C, the thickness decreased to about 1.0 μm.
Click to expand...
 
Ididar said:
People need to stop tossing around guess numbers as fact then. I don't like the design as an engineer but if we don't have data to say how often it is actually failing because of the connector design then all we can say is that we don't like it and that they're pushing the edge of the spec. The problem is people want to use numbers because it gives more gravitas to their statements and then people challenge those numbers and down the rabbit hole of this argument we go.
Click to expand...

True. That said if there wasn't an issue then I doubt Asus and the likes would not bother with special monitoring hardware and special cables where, if I understood correctly, the individual cables are bridged together (basically shorting the wires, all plusses together and all grounds together, metal to metal) to spread the heatload in case something goes wrong and one cable heats up. Thats kinda nuts but also strangely ingenius if it works because this connector should have been just two thick wires in the first place.
 
ZeroBarrier said:
Funny when they guy who doesn't do this professionally is the one to get it to melt when all the professional tech tubers couldn't make the fucker melt no matter what they tried.

View attachment 806058
Click to expand...

There are tech youtubers that have shown the poor current distribution running through the connector using ammeters and published the results. Regardless of how much you want to defend it, this is signaling a clear problem with the design. Several power supply manufactures and brands have added in additional protection features associated with that and are advertising it as a selling feature (Asus, MSI, and Corsair among others). Some GPU manufacturers are beefing up on board protections as we've seen with MSI's 5090 SUPRIM. Manufacturers are telling us there's a problem, they're aware of the problem, and they're actively trying to address the problem. That doesn't mean you're guaranteed to melt your connector, but the fact that your's hasn't melted isn't proof that there isn't a problem with the design. They're redlining the connector with the 5090 in particular.
 
Ididar said:
People need to stop tossing around guess numbers as fact then. I don't like the design as an engineer but if we don't have data to say how often it is actually failing because of the connector design then all we can say is that we don't like it and that they're pushing the edge of the spec. The problem is people want to use numbers because it gives more gravitas to their statements and then people challenge those numbers and down the rabbit hole of this argument we go.
Click to expand...

We do have numbers from engineers who have demonstrated, using ammeters and thermometers, that the power through the connector is often poorly distributed and this is leading to potentially problematic situations (melted connectors, in some cases). The connector is rated for 600W and the 5090 is redlining it. There isn't much of a safety factor, and we shouldn't be surprised there have been cases of melted connectors. I like the idea of a single connection to reduce cable clutter, and remaining on older standards as power requirements go skyward seems silly to me, but at the same time, you can't do more with less. You shouldn't be running a single 600W cable to a card we know can pull more than 600W in a high load situation, particular when the load is not evenly distributed across all of the conductors. I don't even understand why this is up to debate.
 
Tsumi said:
Since when is saying "things could be worse" a valid defense for bad decisions? You use that phrase when you're trying to make the best out of a bad situation. Unless you are implying the 12v-2x6 is a bad situation, in which case I agree.
Click to expand...

A bad situation means something is wrong. I plug the graphics card in and it works fine. That's a normal situation and seems to be the case for pretty much everyone.

I would love a design that stayed ambient temp, snapped in securely, and worked perfect 100% of the time. But normal failure rates for graphics cards and every other PC component or electronics in general are much higher than whatever goes wrong with this power connector.

People can put pressure on nvidia to make it better and that's cool, but I'm not going to worry about it myself because the chance it fails is insignificant.
 
HockeyJon said:
We do have numbers from engineers who have demonstrated, using ammeters and thermometers, that the power through the connector is often poorly distributed and this is leading to potentially problematic situations (melted connectors, in some cases). The connector is rated for 600W and the 5090 is redlining it. There isn't much of a safety factor, and we shouldn't be surprised there have been cases of melted connectors. I like the idea of a single connection to reduce cable clutter, and remaining on older standards as power requirements go skyward seems silly to me, but at the same time, you can't do more with less. You shouldn't be running a single 600W cable to a card we know can pull more than 600W in a high load situation, particular when the load is not evenly distributed across all of the conductors. I don't even understand why this is up to debate.
Click to expand...
You're more than welcome to come up with a better design to sell to manufacturers. Power requirements are not going to decrease, and I would rather not plug in four or five separate cables with little flexibility.
 
sharknice said:
A bad situation means something is wrong. I plug the graphics card in and it works fine. That's a normal situation and seems to be the case for pretty much everyone.

I would love a design that stayed ambient temp, snapped in securely, and worked perfect 100% of the time. But normal failure rates for graphics cards and every other PC component or electronics in general are much higher than whatever goes wrong with this power connector.

People can put pressure on nvidia to make it better and that's cool, but I'm not going to worry about it myself because the chance it fails is insignificant.
Click to expand...
I'm just saying your assertion of "things could be worse" isn't a valid defense for a poor engineering decision designed to pinch pennies on thousand dollar cards.

You have absolutely no numbers backing up your assertion on the failure rates. You have no way of knowing how large this problem is relative to other problems, unless you're an nVidia insider.

Armenius said:
You're more than welcome to come up with a better design to sell to manufacturers. Power requirements are not going to decrease, and I would rather not plug in four or five separate cables with little flexibility.
Click to expand...
The problems could be mostly mitigated with the current connector by not tying every single pin to a common bus. This is pure laziness/greed on nVidia's side to do things that way. Each pin feeds its own set of VRMs and that's it. This would eliminate the risk of uneven power distribution.

Lower the connector rating to 450 watts or expanding it to a 16 pin connector while keeping the same wattage rating are also relatively easy solutions that would increase the safety margins. Again, they can't be tied to a single bus though.

If nVidia really wants single bus and no monitoring or load balancing, the only answer is a 2 wire connector rated to handle the full load. That's just basic electrical engineering.
 
Last edited:
Gideon said:
Putting you on ignore is also becoming a trend in this thread.

Defending this connecter as a good thing for the industry because you like Nvidia is not a good choice. Pushing that kind of amperage that a 5090 and 4090 can draw is a recipe for disaster. So while you want to say no one can prove why it's a bad design, you have not proven why it's a good design either.
Click to expand...
it seems to easy choice for you as it is very hard to come with valid data to prove anything you say.

Oh loook a picture:
1780499577208.png


Must be a bad design!!!
 
AVATARAT said:
I agree with that—we don’t have any data, so we can only make assumptions.

But look, there are some studies (not related to this topic) that show that copper corrosion is at its highest around 70 °C. And guess what—that’s the temperature of the connector during normal operation...
Click to expand...
No, you ignore data when presented because it does not suit your bias.
That is not the same as no data.
 
Ididar said:
People need to stop tossing around guess numbers as fact then. I don't like the design as an engineer but if we don't have data to say how often it is actually failing because of the connector design then all we can say is that we don't like it and that they're pushing the edge of the spec. The problem is people want to use numbers because it gives more gravitas to their statements and then people challenge those numbers and down the rabbit hole of this argument we go.
Click to expand...
No, one side slings numbers with no backing that is the whole problem.

If there was a 4% failure rate we would have the data for it, not some random "user poll".
 
AVATARAT said:
What you refuse to accept is that Nvidia has absolutely no desire to reveal any real “numbers” to the public.

Simply because they don’t want a repeat of the “1080 Ti” situation.
The connector is designed to degrade and burn out completely after a few years of use, so it fails under prolonged/intense load after a short time or may last the warranty period under light/infrequent load.
What you can see/check is the repair rate for the 4090 or the connector replacement rate at service centers, and the rate is huge at just “450 W.” But again, there are no summarized figures, and that’s exactly what Nvidia is after.

And again, you don’t have the numbers you’re looking for, and they will never be shown because this is evidence for a class-action lawsuit against Nvidia—they won’t work against themselves. Only a leak of internal information can reveal the real numbers.
Click to expand...
A lot of words for not liking the data and yet not presnet a single datapoint yourself.
 
Tsumi said:
Since when is saying "things could be worse" a valid defense for bad decisions? You use that phrase when you're trying to make the best out of a bad situation. Unless you are implying the 12v-2x6 is a bad situation, in which case I agree.
Click to expand...
Since whne have this been proven to be a real issue?

The numbers does not support it.

Oh no, look, the design must be bad:
1780499826562.png
 
Tsumi said:
I'm just saying your assertion of "things could be worse" isn't a valid defense for a poor engineering decision designed to pinch pennies on thousand dollar cards.

You have absolutely no numbers backing up your assertion on the failure rates. You have no way of knowing how large this problem is relative to other problems, unless you're an nVidia insider.


The problems could be mostly mitigated with the current connector by not tying every single pin to a common bus. This is pure laziness/greed on nVidia's side to do things that way. Each pin feeds its own set of VRMs and that's it. This would eliminate the risk of uneven power distribution.

Lower the connector rating to 450 watts or expanding it to a 16 pin connector while keeping the same wattage rating are also relatively easy solutions that would increase the safety margins. Again, they can't be tied to a single bus though.

If nVidia really wants single bus and no monitoring or load balancing, the only answer is a 2 wire connector rated to handle the full load. That's just basic electrical engineering.
Click to expand...

Tsumi said:
I'm just saying your assertion of "things could be worse" isn't a valid defense for a poor engineering decision designed to pinch pennies on thousand dollar cards.

You have absolutely no numbers backing up your assertion on the failure rates. You have no way of knowing how large this problem is relative to other problems, unless you're an nVidia insider.


The problems could be mostly mitigated with the current connector by not tying every single pin to a common bus. This is pure laziness/greed on nVidia's side to do things that way. Each pin feeds its own set of VRMs and that's it. This would eliminate the risk of uneven power distribution.

Lower the connector rating to 450 watts or expanding it to a 16 pin connector while keeping the same wattage rating are also relatively easy solutions that would increase the safety margins. Again, they can't be tied to a single bus though.

If nVidia really wants single bus and no monitoring or load balancing, the only answer is a 2 wire connector rated to handle the full load. That's just basic electrical engineering.
Click to expand...

"You have no way of knowing how large this problem is relative to other problems,"

Yes I do. Plenty of posts on this very forum where people discuss their 5090s and 4090s. Plenty of posts where people talk about other broken components, "space invaders" nvidia gpus, etc. It's easy to compare that to how many people are posting about this specific issue causing them problems.
 
Armenius said:
You're more than welcome to come up with a better design to sell to manufacturers. Power requirements are not going to decrease, and I would rather not plug in four or five separate cables with little flexibility.
Click to expand...

They already have invented things that work better, think connecters for LiPo batteries in RC cars as they are built for the amperage. They just cost a bit more than what Nvidia chose to use.
 
Armenius said:
You're more than welcome to come up with a better design to sell to manufacturers. Power requirements are not going to decrease, and I would rather not plug in four or five separate cables with little flexibility.
Click to expand...

It's not up to the consumer to fix the problems of the manufacturer of a product that shouldn't have been mass produced in its current state in the first place. That said, there are obvious solutions and some manufacturers are already implementing them, but everything feels like a band-aid for something that clearly shouldn't have passed the drawing board. The have already had to mechanically redesign the connector itself from 12VHPWR to 12V-2x6, and now PSU and GPU manufacturers are adding additional protections related to problems that have been pointed out on the electrical side. You know, solutions for a design we know is perfect with zero problems because Nvidia said so, and all of these efforts are being done despite the fact the design is perfect and all problems encountered boil down to "user error".
 
sharknice said:
"You have no way of knowing how large this problem is relative to other problems,"

Yes I do. Plenty of posts on this very forum where people discuss their 5090s and 4090s. Plenty of posts where people talk about other broken components, "space invaders" nvidia gpus, etc. It's easy to compare that to how many people are posting about this specific issue causing them problems.
Click to expand...
As another person that I have now blocked kept asserting: meaningless anecdotes. None of which excuses the piss poor design.
 
HockeyJon said:
We do have numbers from engineers who have demonstrated, using ammeters and thermometers, that the power through the connector is often poorly distributed and this is leading to potentially problematic situations (melted connectors, in some cases). The connector is rated for 600W and the 5090 is redlining it. There isn't much of a safety factor, and we shouldn't be surprised there have been cases of melted connectors. I like the idea of a single connection to reduce cable clutter, and remaining on older standards as power requirements go skyward seems silly to me, but at the same time, you can't do more with less. You shouldn't be running a single 600W cable to a card we know can pull more than 600W in a high load situation, particular when the load is not evenly distributed across all of the conductors. I don't even understand why this is up to debate.
Click to expand...

That it can cause an issue isn't up for debate, at least with me. I'm well aware of what you're saying. What we don't know is how widespread the consequences are. The scale of the connectors melting is completely unknown right now so people need to stop tossing out percentages on that front as if they're fact. Having numbers surrounding the load in the connector does not mean we get to make up numbers about how many cards have had their connectors melt.
 
Ididar said:
That it can cause an issue isn't up for debate, at least with me. I'm well aware of what you're saying. What we don't know is how widespread the consequences are. The scale of the connectors melting is completely unknown right now so people need to stop tossing out percentages on that front as if they're fact. Having numbers surrounding the load in the connector does not mean we get to make up numbers about how many cards have had their connectors melt.
Click to expand...

That's fair enough, but a lot of companies are coming out with solutions to a problem a large number of (largely Nvidia fanboys) are claiming doesn't exist. Not wanting something to exist doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
 
HockeyJon said:
That's fair enough, but a lot of companies are coming out with solutions to a problem a large number of (largely Nvidia fanboys) are claiming doesn't exist. Not wanting something to exist doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Click to expand...
Are you saying that a company is making a product that people will buy even thought it may be completely unnecessary?

Sounds a lot like the metric tons of products that are sold outside the PC enthusiast space, and inside the PC enthusiast space as well.
 
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