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Bipartisan Bill Would Impose New Annual Fee on Electric Vehicles

Because they taxed gas to "fix roads", which they can't do to electric vehicles. NJ has the same problem as more people use E-bikes to get around. So of course you now need to register your bike. The real solution is to tax large vehicles because oh my god do people love their SUVs. Trucks especially since they're the ones tearing up roads. Especially for businesses where SUV's bypass a tax loophole.
 
DukenukemX said:
Because they taxed gas to "fix roads", which they can't do to electric vehicles. NJ has the same problem as more people use E-bikes to get around. So of course you now need to register your bike. The real solution is to tax large vehicles because oh my god do people love their SUVs. Trucks especially since they're the ones tearing up roads. Especially for businesses where SUV's bypass a tax loophole.
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Simple, just have scales at filling stations. Person driving big ass SUV pays $14 a gallon while the moped rider pays fifty cents. :-P

Tax by mile for STATE, are they using telematics to determine exactly how many miles are driven in each state? Doubt it.
 
cpufrost said:
Simple, just have scales at filling stations. Person driving big ass SUV pays $14 a gallon while the moped rider pays fifty cents. :-P

Tax by mile for STATE, are they using telematics to determine exactly how many miles are driven in each state? Doubt it.
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I like per mile. I drive about 250 miles per YEAR. Send It lol
 
cpufrost said:
Tax by mile for STATE, are they using telematics to determine exactly how many miles are driven in each state? Doubt it.
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Yes, for big rigs its called IFTA.
Truckers/Trucking companies used to have to do it using paper but now its part of the ELog/ELD package that tracks it for them.

Scary thing is that the tracking is already built into newer cars to do it.
 
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DukenukemX said:
Because they taxed gas to "fix roads", which they can't do to electric vehicles. NJ has the same problem as more people use E-bikes to get around. So of course you now need to register your bike. The real solution is to tax large vehicles because oh my god do people love their SUVs. Trucks especially since they're the ones tearing up roads. Especially for businesses where SUV's bypass a tax loophole.
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My road needed work, they blamed my sump pump that ran 2 times in 20 years because "it ruined the road by getting it wet" (I asked about the rain and they chose to ignore the question.) So because of my sump pump I pay an extra 5 dollars a month in my water bill. WTF are my taxes for if not to repair old roads?

Funny part was i half asses the burying of the tube so when it backed up that winter into everyone's basement it froze before it filled the hole. My pump was running non-stop that winter I went out and noticed the flexable tube was ridged I broke it, the water shot out. Fixed it that spring. Didn't think too much about it.

A few years later my neighbor was trying to get me to remember how the city flooded all of our basement sflooded by the new sump pump drain. (I only then put it all together)
 
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It’s funny because these electric cars are rolling computers that regularly phone home to the mothership. It would be way too easy to track the mileage that is put on these things, then tax it when you go to renew your tag each year.

Gas has tax attached to it, but you can’t do the same with electric vehicles. This levels the playing field. Don’t like it? Buy an ICE vehicle.
 
I don’t have an electric vehicle. tax by mile makes sense until they require it to be “GPS verified “ or some bs like that. Not going to give up that data.
I understand paying some for road usage, but for me, it’s a hard sell if previous administrations have diverted those funds for other pet projects. When I lived in Connecticut, they diverted funds from gas tax to subsidize MTA, they then needed money to do roads. The solution: tolls. The roads there were crap. No way I’m paying for the privilege of that. So glad I moved out.
 
tunatime said:
They should get taxed the same as we do at the "pump" just put kwh meters on the chargers and tax them a few bucks a charge
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"More regulation of charging stations would slow the buildout of infrastructure for electric charging, stifling the industry"
-- them, probably
 
Epyon said:
I am getting real sick of being nickel and dime on everything i own. Yes i said OWNED.:mad:
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Do you own the roads you drive on?
cpufrost said:
Simple, just have scales at filling stations. Person driving big ass SUV pays $14 a gallon while the moped rider pays fifty cents. :-P

Tax by mile for STATE, are they using telematics to determine exactly how many miles are driven in each state? Doubt it.
Click to expand...
SUV drivers already pay more just by using more gas. But yes, it should be a mileage tax rather than a flat fee.

In California, most ICE cars have to go to smog stations every one or two years. It would be pretty simple to require an EV owner to visit one of many smog stations, plug in the OBD II, and have the mileage sent to the DMV.
sc5mu93 said:
I don’t have an electric vehicle. tax by mile makes sense until they require it to be “GPS verified “ or some bs like that. Not going to give up that data.
I understand paying some for road usage, but for me, it’s a hard sell if previous administrations have diverted those funds for other pet projects. When I lived in Connecticut, they diverted funds from gas tax to subsidize MTA, they then needed money to do roads. The solution: tolls. The roads there were crap. No way I’m paying for the privilege of that. So glad I moved out.
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IMO, tolls rather than a gas or mileage tax are the way to go, with the toll rate being dependent on the weight class registered to the license plate. Implement one or the other, but not both.
tunatime said:
They should get taxed the same as we do at the "pump" just put kwh meters on the chargers and tax them a few bucks a charge
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Problem then becomes home chargers. I'm pretty sure the vast majority of EVs charge at home and requiring home owners to install a separate meter for their EV doesn't seem feasible. Too easily circumvented.
 
ya'll are simply dumb!

currently there are 40 (yes that is fourty or 80%) of the states impose "road use tax" at registration of an electric vehicle because they dont pay gas tax for roads.

there is this thing called google...its on the internet...it allows you to search for answers to things like this
 
tunatime said:
They should get taxed the same as we do at the "pump" just put kwh meters on the chargers and tax them a few bucks a charge
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And then the "rogue" chargers who do so at home? How would you know whos charging vs whos just running a hot tub? Or should we completely change the basic infrastructure of the electrical system all so the government can more easily tax us?
 
my roads are chip and seal repaired and some gravel. I want a partial refund on my gas tax.

but yea they have been doing this for electric vehicles for a while now, paying at registration time. Hybrids have a partial increase over 'regular' gas cars due to their efficiency.

Remove all gas taxes, make registration fees not based on fuel usage, and just make more toll roads. That way all tax is based on usage. Or at registration time your odometer is read and when you register you pay based on your mileage used from last registration.

Glad gas powered tools, mowers, farm equipment etc all have to pay for this road repair tax too. We never like to really dispute taxes we are already 'used to'.
 
Tsumi said:
SUV drivers already pay more just by using more gas. But yes, it should be a mileage tax rather than a flat fee.
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Sure, but how does that compare to a very low efficiency sports car which is considerably lighter?

Tsumi said:
In California, most ICE cars have to go to smog stations every one or two years. It would be pretty simple to require an EV owner to visit one of many smog stations, plug in the OBD II, and have the mileage sent to the DMV.
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I dont know if requiring people to pay a service shop is really a useful solution. As it stands I was kind of miffed when my PZEV hybrid started requiring smog checks... on a car where they cant actually check smog properly because it doesnt idle.
Tsumi said:
IMO, tolls rather than a gas or mileage tax are the way to go, with the toll rate being dependent on the weight class registered to the license plate. Implement one or the other, but not both.
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I agree, tolls on highways and freeways, then let cities deal with their own streets. Or hell I dont know, budget roadwork into general taxes and consider it a public service, because that guy who rides a bike everywhere and doesnt pay a lick of gas tax sure as hell uses the roads when he doordashes half his meals, and most of his apartment was bought via Amazon.
 
This one is tough, because there isn't EV electricity vs. normal electricity. So, they either have to wrongfully triple tax non-EV people or they have to target EV... and in this case the vehicles itself. Now... if there was a way to tap into "usage", they could do that and it would be similar to the gas tax.... but right now, it's just a problem.

Also, why I get that EV owners can never be wrong, and here is no exception, EVs are much much much much heavier vehicles. So, in quantity, if everyone goes EV, it will cause faster wear on roads.

My prediction, just because of where we've been heading over the past few decades, spy ware. Let's face it, if you drive an EV today, your privacy is already toast... so the idea of easy tapping of usage, even to the point of tax differences depending on roads used, will be "the way" in the future IMHO.
 
cpufrost said:
Simple, just have scales at filling stations. Person driving big ass SUV pays $14 a gallon while the moped rider pays fifty cents. :-P

Tax by mile for STATE, are they using telematics to determine exactly how many miles are driven in each state? Doubt it.
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big ass car tend to consumer more gallon per miles and already pay more tax per miles as a general rules.

Electric car do break that, miles*weight*ratio would make a lot of sense, but that could rapidly invovle quite the tracking, one possible way could be weighted station in highways toll box if they are not too complicated that simply price it in without even having to look at the car.

Darunion said:
Glad gas powered tools, mowers, farm equipment etc all have to pay for this road repair tax too. We never like to really dispute taxes we are already 'used to'.
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farm fuel do tend to be taxed quite differently, red dyed diesel (farm, construction, off road use) is much cheaper for that reason, if they use regular gasoline they will pay at the pump but get it back when filling business expense, by logging how much was used outside the roads. Cops can test reservoir to see if people use their dye not taxed the same fuel in their diesel cars, but it is common for people to take their chances with it.
 
cjcox said:
My prediction, just because of where we've been heading over the past few decades, spy ware. Let's face it, if you drive an EV today, your privacy is already toast... so the idea of easy tapping of usage, even to the point of tax differences depending on roads used, will be "the way" in the future IMHO.
Click to expand...

Man, the amount of snooping manufacturers do in the auto industry is shocking. It only makes my Power Wagon, RX3, RX7, and REPU more an more precious to me.

That and I'm almost 50 now. Getting rid of old, useless things is an increasingly dangerous precedent to set.
 
Odometer seems like the no-brainer issue. When you do your registration renewal input your odometer number and take a picture and upload it to confirm the number. The registration would subtract the old number from the new number and charge accordingly. Remove all gas taxes so everyone is paying based on distance driven, not method of driving. You can have a multiplication factor in there for vehicle weight so motorcycles aren't paying the same as heavy duty truck. This is a pretty simple concept but that takes all the BS politics out of the equation and all the various motivations for why they won't do the sensible thing.
 
Ididar said:
Odometer seems like the no-brainer issue. When you do your registration renewal input your odometer number and take a picture and upload it to confirm the number. The registration would subtract the old number from the new number and charge accordingly. Remove all gas taxes so everyone is paying based on distance driven, not method of driving. You can have a multiplication factor in there for vehicle weight so motorcycles aren't paying the same as heavy duty truck. This is a pretty simple concept but that takes all the BS politics out of the equation and all the various motivations for why they won't do the sensible thing.
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Some state do offer this for their taxes, but a federal level mandate like this, made by the federal goverment in 2027... would cost a fortune, enter a giant privacy debate (as some would want to have a shared states/federal infacstructure and interested in the question of where the miles are driven to give state previous gas tax collection to them) and backlash, etc...

gas tax were quite nice for the federal..... each state could put its own and gas use was highly correlated with gas purchase location, gas use was correlated with mileage-weight already, extremelly cheap collection system at the point of sales (with already taxation occuring regardless of that extra one anyway), here the moment you would want to actually do it well, seem like it would be effectively complicated in the current world.
 
LukeTbk said:
Some state do offer this for their taxes, but a federal level mandate like this, made by the federal goverment in 2027... would cost a fortune, enter a giant privacy debate (as some would want to have a shared states/federal infacstructure and interested in the question of where the miles are driven to give state previous gas tax collection to them) and backlash, etc...

gas tax were quite nice for the federal..... each state could put its own and gas use was highly correlated with gas purchase location, gas use was correlated with mileage-weight already, extremelly cheap collection system at the point of sales (with already taxation occuring regardless of that extra one anyway), here the moment you would want to actually do it well, seem like it would be effectively complicated in the current world.
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Yes, as usual politics makes the simple and effective thing unrealistic because they would rather fight each other than cooperate to help the citizens.
 
Disconnecting gas prices and taxes collected would be nice. It would incentivize lower gas prices to promote more driving. But being taxed based on how much you drive would still have an effect as well. Lots of details to work out in this path of course.

I dunno, i just really want there to be no benefit to the people making decisions when gas prices go up.
 
sc5mu93 said:
I don’t have an electric vehicle. tax by mile makes sense until they require it to be “GPS verified “ or some bs like that. Not going to give up that data.
I understand paying some for road usage, but for me, it’s a hard sell if previous administrations have diverted those funds for other pet projects. When I lived in Connecticut, they diverted funds from gas tax to subsidize MTA, they then needed money to do roads. The solution: tolls. The roads there were crap. No way I’m paying for the privilege of that. So glad I moved out.
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Agreed, it doesn't matter if the politicians are corrupt. Shady stuff where I live more than once but the damage was already done with no steps to rectify the worst of it.
 
Tsumi said:
Do you own the roads you drive on?

SUV drivers already pay more just by using more gas. But yes, it should be a mileage tax rather than a flat fee.

In California, most ICE cars have to go to smog stations every one or two years. It would be pretty simple to require an EV owner to visit one of many smog stations, plug in the OBD II, and have the mileage sent to the DMV.

IMO, tolls rather than a gas or mileage tax are the way to go, with the toll rate being dependent on the weight class registered to the license plate. Implement one or the other, but not both.

Problem then becomes home chargers. I'm pretty sure the vast majority of EVs charge at home and requiring home owners to install a separate meter for their EV doesn't seem feasible. Too easily circumvented.
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It's cute that you think the gas tax actually goes to fixing and maintaining roads.
Darunion said:
Disconnecting gas prices and taxes collected would be nice. It would incentivize lower gas prices to promote more driving. But being taxed based on how much you drive would still have an effect as well. Lots of details to work out in this path of course.

I dunno, i just really want there to be no benefit to the people making decisions when gas prices go up.
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What would they do to people who don't drive a lot? Have a minimum penalty for daring to own and operate a vehicle? Sounds like behavioral engineering.
 
Armenius said:
What would they do to people who don't drive a lot? Have a minimum penalty for daring to own and operate a vehicle? Sounds like behavioral engineering.
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People who don't drive a lot wouldn't put much miles on, wouldn't pay much in taxes. Similarly to how now said people don't use as much gas.
 
Ididar said:
Yes, as usual politics makes the simple and effective thing unrealistic because they would rather fight each other than cooperate to help the citizens.
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Not sure how much citizen would either like having their miles driving tracked or the implication of the states loosing that taxing power to become pure federal without GPS tracking.

A opt-in could be the first way you go, you can pay all upfrond as if you were driving 20k miles a year or opt-in to have them tracked and pay up to that amount, less if you drive less.

Armenius said:
It's cute that you think the gas tax actually goes to fixing and maintaining roads.
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money being the most fungible of things it is always a bit strange, but yes they do in some city, state and federal level for highways, 18.4 cent per gallons goes directly into the highway trust fund (some goes to mass transist or road polices/patrol, but a lot to roads themselves)
 
Armenius said:
It's cute that you think the gas tax actually goes to fixing and maintaining roads.

What would they do to people who don't drive a lot? Have a minimum penalty for daring to own and operate a vehicle? Sounds like behavioral engineering.
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I'm not going to argue about intent of the tax vs actual implementation, or government corruption, budgeting, etc. The point still stands that you don't own the roads you drive on so some sort of usage tax or fee is perfectly warranted, and arguing against any existence of such is flat out wrong. You can argue about how it should be implemented, calculated, and used, but not the existence of it.
 
tunatime said:
They should get taxed the same as we do at the "pump" just put kwh meters on the chargers and tax them a few bucks a charge
Click to expand...

People don't normally go to charging stations. They just plug in their car when they get home and it charges over night.


There isn't really an easy way to tax road usage without going full big brother.
 
So for me:

1779391130436.png


I didn't know about the low mileage program though, so thanks to this thread for causing me to find out about it I suppose. I'd definitely save some money that way, although considering the maximum fee is currently $131.88, it's not exactly going to amount to much even if I manage to crack 3,000 miles this year.
 
LukeTbk said:
Not sure how much citizen would either like having their miles driving tracked or the implication of the states loosing that taxing power to become pure federal without GPS tracking.

A opt-in could be the first way you go, you can pay all upfrond as if you were driving 20k miles a year or opt-in to have them tracked and pay up to that amount, less if you drive less.


money being the most fungible of things it is always a bit strange, but yes they do in some city, state and federal level for highways, 18.4 cent per gallons goes directly into the highway trust fund (some goes to mass transist or road polices/patrol, but a lot to roads themselves)
Click to expand...

Yeah, but then anyone who is driving more than 20k would automatically opt out. The highest users would get a pass. Just knowing pure distance travelled is hardly some amazing amount of government oversight. The ridiculous monitoring would be GPS tracking which I think most people would automatically object to because the government would then, no doubt, start using that GPS data to track your speed on which roads and be sending out tickets automatically to the vehicle owner. We all know they'd abuse that data the second they got it.
 
Ididar said:
Yeah, but then anyone who is driving more than 20k would automatically opt out. The highest users would get a pass. Just knowing pure distance travelled is hardly some amazing amount of government oversight. The ridiculous monitoring would be GPS tracking which I think most people would automatically object to because the government would then, no doubt, start using that GPS data to track your speed on which roads and be sending out tickets automatically to the vehicle owner. We all know they'd abuse that data the second they got it.
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Full telematic monitoring AND control coming. Since all new vehicles are essentially iOT devices with embedded cellular radios, it's easy as throwing a switch. Of course leaving that up to government regulators, it's complex and way over budget.
 
Cost is the biggest thing holding EVs back from mass adoption. Sure guys, might as well kick them while they're down.
 
Ididar said:
Yeah, but then anyone who is driving more than 20k would automatically opt out. The highest users would get a pass. Just knowing pure distance travelled is hardly some amazing amount of government oversight. The ridiculous monitoring would be GPS tracking which I think most people would automatically object to because the government would then, no doubt, start using that GPS data to track your speed on which roads and be sending out tickets automatically to the vehicle owner. We all know they'd abuse that data the second they got it.
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But because state want that tax, that what would happen to known in which state you drove (that what is often in place right now at state level), people would opt out but driving more than 20,000 miles will often be for work anyway and driving expense being wrote expense tracking gas receipts.

It is a legititame not obvious one in a federal system in which cities, state and federal all have tax on gas trying to tax EV mileage, if it was federal only it would be easier (as location driven does not matter and does not need to care about canada-mexico miles by US cars necessarily and a less common scenario).
 
For both privacy and cost savings it seems the best option is for both non-commercial (commercial and extremely heavy vehicles already pay at weight stations or other locations, not to mention they spend considerably more time on interstate transit than average work-to-home commuters) ICE and EVs to pay a Highway Use Fee for their state at some interval, like the example for VA above. This can vary a bit depending on the weight and/or other facets of the vehicle, but it doesn't require either infesting the system with invasive tracking or throwing toll roads everywhere (both of which tend to benefit private middlemen running the systems), and would even overnight make gas slightly cheaper by taking that particular tax out of the price - a factor that would make many users happier. So long as the Highway Use Fee is reasonable and there are programs for low mileage users, those with disability placards or NGO/registered charity ownership, hardship, and other discounts or exceptions it seems a good way to ensure that both ICE and EV users both contribute fairly to maintaining the roadways.

This is not to say there cannot be some lower fees , subsidies, and other benefits to encourage EV usage or other facets of the program can't be tweaked as needed, but I'd think this is a much better path than having intrusive monitoring spread further or other issues.
 
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