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Microsoft is grouping its efforts to fix Windows internally under the K2 project

D

DanNeely

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
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Messages
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https://www.windowscentral.com/micr...everything-you-need-to-know-saving-windows-11

Performance, Craft, and Reliability​

These are the three core pillars of focus with the Windows K2 initiative.

These pillars are what drive the Windows experience. If one of these pillars falls behind, the entire product suffers as a result. With Windows K2, Microsoft is working to ensure these three pillars are strong by addressing feedback directly from users and Insiders, analyzing telemetry data, and conducting focus groups with customers.

...

In the past, Windows has been obsessed with agility. It was keen to ship new features as quickly and as frequently as possible, but this ultimately came at the cost of quality and reliability. While teams were able to get new features out the door fast, users became frustrated with an OS that never stood still and becoming ever more problematic.

...

For gaming, Microsoft views steamOS as the benchmark, and is working to optimize the platform so that steamOS and Windows gaming performance are comparable. Within the next year or two, it believes that Windows will be able to truly compete head-to-head with steamOS in gaming performance on identical hardware due to foundational changes that are being made to the platform in the coming months.

...

I’m told there’s also a concerted effort to debloat Windows 11 too, focusing on minimizing memory use at idle and reducing the overall footprint of the OS so that it runs better on low-end hardware as well as smoother on high-end systems and gaming handhelds.
Click to expand...

It looks like they're targeting all the right things internally. Now they just need to deliver on them.

And after doing so, probably rebrand and launch Windows 12 because they've blundered enough to make W11 radioactive and will need a "good Windows" release to restore public trust again.
 
I would go further and say that Microsoft NEEDS to brand Windows 12 explicitly as a rejection of Windows 11. And then move heaven and earth to migrate people to Windows 12. That would include relaxing the TPM requirements for Windows 11. I'll leave it to the marketing boffins in Microsoft to simultaneously make Windows 12 secure and to allow non-TPM-compliant systems to run Win 12. Satya Nadella needs to publicly apologize and grovel for these mistakes.

And it would also be nice if Microsoft had open forums were people could discuss issues and requirements with Microsoft product managers and engineers.
 
philb2 said:
I would go further and say that Microsoft NEEDS to brand Windows 12 explicitly as a rejection of Windows 11. And then move heaven and earth to migrate people to Windows 12. That would include relaxing the TPM requirements for Windows 11. I'll leave it to the marketing boffins in Microsoft to simultaneously make Windows 12 secure and to allow non-TPM-compliant systems to run Win 12. Satya Nadella needs to publicly apologize and grovel for these mistakes.

And it would also be nice if Microsoft had open forums were people could discuss issues and requirements with Microsoft product managers and engineers.
Click to expand...

The TPM is probably the last W11 change I'd expect to be reverted. 99.9% of users have computers with them enabled from the factory; the remainder already largely have used one of the janky bypasses to get around the nominal requirement.

If anything were to change on that front, my guess would be that MS would turn the paper requirement for a newer CPU (which incidentally would have a TMP) with a hard one by changing the compiler/build settings to only generate code that won't run on older TPM-optional chips. (I was really surprised they didn't do that at release.)
 
I'm not sure how much analysis they need to do here, it's pretty simple. Stop with they excessive features that nobody uses or cares about, focus on making it more efficient and stable, cut the bloat, and for the love of God let us uninstall whatever we want. This includes copilot.
 
Remove the AI. Remove all the shite it comes with. Remove all the telemetry. They're not going to do any of these things. And then there's Browsergate showing the world that Microsoft was trying to steal data from half a billion users. Earn customer trust back? Are they serious? They would need to start a new company and a new operating system. The Microsoft rot starts from the inside.
 
DanNeely said:
https://www.windowscentral.com/micr...everything-you-need-to-know-saving-windows-11



It looks like they're targeting all the right things internally. Now they just need to deliver on them.

And after doing so, probably rebrand and launch Windows 12 because they've blundered enough to make W11 radioactive and will need a "good Windows" release to restore public trust again.
Click to expand...
Well they have done the initial consultation. Created a bullet point slides presentation power point presentation.
Now its time for the dept heads to consult with the various team leads about deliverables.
Then it will be up to the team leads to liaise with their engineers as to what facets suit their skill sets.
Then it will be up to the engineers to properly create a time table for what they can provide in an effort toward ticking off those deliverables.

AH hell you know MS is just going to task the AI to do this right? ;)
 
DanNeely said:
The TPM is probably the last W11 change I'd expect to be reverted. 99.9% of users have computers with them enabled from the factory; the remainder already largely have used one of the janky bypasses to get around the nominal requirement.

If anything were to change on that front, my guess would be that MS would turn the paper requirement for a newer CPU (which incidentally would have a TMP) with a hard one by changing the compiler/build settings to only generate code that won't run on older TPM-optional chips. (I was really surprised they didn't do that at release.)
Click to expand...
Also the CPU limit, supposing it stays the same, has become much less of a big deal. When 11 was introduced the 7th gen CPUs weren't all that old. The Intel 7th gen CPUs were launched at the beginning of 2017, 11 came out in mid 2021 so you had CPUs just a little more than 4 years old that it didn't support. That's kinda rough and you can understand why people were upset. If they keep the same restriction now it'll be CPUs that are 9-10 years old, depending on when they launch it. That's much less of an issue.
 
DanNeely said:
https://www.windowscentral.com/micr...everything-you-need-to-know-saving-windows-11



It looks like they're targeting all the right things internally. Now they just need to deliver on them.

And after doing so, probably rebrand and launch Windows 12 because they've blundered enough to make W11 radioactive and will need a "good Windows" release to restore public trust again.
Click to expand...
Repackage Windows 7 using the modern tech without the bloat and I'll consider it.


View: https://youtu.be/e49TtB-HTH0
 
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DanNeely said:
The TPM is probably the last W11 change I'd expect to be reverted. 99.9% of users have computers with them enabled from the factory; the remainder already largely have used one of the janky bypasses to get around the nominal requirement.

If anything were to change on that front, my guess would be that MS would turn the paper requirement for a newer CPU (which incidentally would have a TMP) with a hard one by changing the compiler/build settings to only generate code that won't run on older TPM-optional chips. (I was really surprised they didn't do that at release.)
Click to expand...
If Microsoft were to revert TPM2.0 requirements then it would have to be with Windows 11 first. Whatever happened to just supporting a feature if the hardware exists?
 
This image comes back to mind, Microsoft needs to sort out all of their internal departments and stop acting like isolated islands between products, more so products that directly interact with each other, such as OS + Office suite....
Company methods.jpg
 
MrGuvernment said:
This image comes back to mind, Microsoft needs to sort out all of their internal departments and stop acting like isolated islands between products, more so products that directly interact with each other, such as OS + Office suite....
View attachment 800182
Click to expand...
Microsoft has moved a little past that, but not much.

It often feels like Microsoft products are made to exist in service of one division's goals, focus be damned. Ballmer is notorious for treating mobile and Xbox as tools for driving Windows on the desktop; under Nadella, that has meant making Windows and Xbox subservient to cloud services (including AI).

I'm a bit more optimistic at the moment. K2 is an acknowledgment that Windows has lost its way; Asha Sharma seems determined to revitalize Xbox.

The classic foil is Apple. It's ultimately a hardware company, but it's willing to pivot to where it sees people going and takes a more holistic approach. When it realized smartphones were the future, it didn't just put out the iPhone — it reoriented the entire company. I still wonder what would have happened if Ballmer had helped Windows Mobile/Phone truly stand on its own rather than treating it as a way to sell more Windows PCs.
 
Aurelius said:
Microsoft has moved a little past that, but not much.

It often feels like Microsoft products are made to exist in service of one division's goals, focus be damned. Ballmer is notorious for treating mobile and Xbox as tools for driving Windows on the desktop; under Nadella, that has meant making Windows and Xbox subservient to cloud services (including AI).

I'm a bit more optimistic at the moment. K2 is an acknowledgment that Windows has lost its way; Asha Sharma seems determined to revitalize Xbox.

The classic foil is Apple. It's ultimately a hardware company, but it's willing to pivot to where it sees people going and takes a more holistic approach. When it realized smartphones were the future, it didn't just put out the iPhone — it reoriented the entire company. I still wonder what would have happened if Ballmer had helped Windows Mobile/Phone truly stand on its own rather than treating it as a way to sell more Windows PCs.
Click to expand...

I think MS was just too late pivoting to touchscreen phones. WP6 was designed for stylus input and a dead end with apps that couldn't work well (buttons/etc were all way too small for finger selection); and both iOS and Android were well established when WP7 came out.

MS made a number of mistakes with the platforms, no upgrade path for hardware and software between 7 and 8 (lots of MS fanboys rage quit over this); and locking down the hardware to the extent that OEMs could only customize on the color of the back of the phone and how curved or sharp the edges were. Even without those footguns though, it was too little too late. They were a distant 3rd which resulted in very few companies being willing to port apps over. At that point they were already screwed long term.

The base OS running on lower end hardware was their only selling point then; but a few generations of newer hardware dropped the minimum hardware requirement for Android from $250 to $100 at which point being the only $100 smartphone ceased to drive sales outside the US (and anywhere else where subsidized phones weren't the norm).
 
Sycraft said:
Also the CPU limit, supposing it stays the same, has become much less of a big deal. When 11 was introduced the 7th gen CPUs weren't all that old. The Intel 7th gen CPUs were launched at the beginning of 2017, 11 came out in mid 2021 so you had CPUs just a little more than 4 years old that it didn't support. That's kinda rough and you can understand why people were upset. If they keep the same restriction now it'll be CPUs that are 9-10 years old, depending on when they launch it. That's much less of an issue.
Click to expand...
With Gen 7 only the good boards had TPM2.0, the bulk didn’t. Gen 8 had it across the lineup.
Easier to cut it there than have a spreadsheet of boards or devices that did support it.
 
Microsoft makes waaaay more money as an advertising platform and services provider than it does as a software sales company.

In fact, they make WAAY more money by being an advertising platform and services provider that pretends like it cares so so much about its' widdle software customers than it would if it didn't pretend.
 
Lakados said:
With Gen 7 only the good boards had TPM2.0, the bulk didn’t. Gen 8 had it across the lineup.
Easier to cut it there than have a spreadsheet of boards or devices that did support it.
Click to expand...
It actually wasn't for TPM they did it, it was for a virtualization feature. HVCI runs real slow on 7th gen and older because of the lack of the feature (can't remember the name, MBEC maybe?) Some 7th gen CPUs do have it but most don't, but all 8th gen do hence that's the cutoff.
 
No offense, but I think most of you are in a pipe dream on MS rolling back things. They're a monopoly. They don't care. They only get more authoritarian and invasive - not less.
MrGuvernment said:
This image comes back to mind, Microsoft needs to sort out all of their internal departments and stop acting like isolated islands between products, more so products that directly interact with each other, such as OS + Office suite....
View attachment 800182
Click to expand...
Lol! I love this. I don't know much about the others, but that totally is how I describe Microsoft to everyone. Islands of engineering teams working on one product. It's always wouldn't it be nice if they integrated this with this? ...waits years... Same question!
 
sleepeeg3 said:
No offense, but I think most of you are in a pipe dream on MS rolling back things. They're a monopoly. They don't care. They only get more authoritarian and invasive - not less.
Click to expand...
Maybe but Microsoft is pissing off the US Government right now as Windows 11 is failing in the Military deployments and the government offices, the EU is also pissed and actively expanding out away from MS. They they have Steam pressuring them and XBox is deep in the hole thanks to all the studio purchases and the sad game launches.

That makes shareholders worry, and that makes board members squirm, and that puts pressure on people down the line.

Amazon is taking Microsoft cloud business, AI expenditures aren’t making the returns they expect, XBox is circling the drain, and some major Governmental bodies are expressing active displeasure. I am sure some high level people have been told to fix that if they want to remain employed.

Microsoft may not be in any real danger of going anywhere, but a dip in the stock price will still result in “strategic reshuffling” So for those let go Microsoft might as well have gone under because they wont be working there regardless.
 
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hopefully nvidia can convince Microsoft to do away with the dedicated NPU requirement & get all the TOPS needed from igpu itself !!
 
Windows is still the front facing product for MS. Everyone knows what it is. If Windows gets bad enough that companies and government entities start looking at alternatives it's going to be a massive hit to MS in reputation. If the front facing and best known piece of software is no longer worth running, how likely is it companies and government entities will also start dropping other MS software and services?

This is the problem MS has been ignoring for years and it's probably coming around to bite them in the ass finally.

Wanting to change things and improve Windows is all well and good. That doesn't mean MS has the capability, talent or proper drive to do it. If I had to put money on the outcome my money would be on MS failing miserably at improving Windows. Also, improving Windows for corporate or government customers doesn't necessarily mean it will be anything positive for regular consumers.
 
The shareholders aren't going to tolerate money being spent on Windows unless Micro$lop can prove it will deliver direct and immediate shareholder value.
 
DanNeely said:
I think MS was just too late pivoting to touchscreen phones. WP6 was designed for stylus input and a dead end with apps that couldn't work well (buttons/etc were all way too small for finger selection); and both iOS and Android were well established when WP7 came out.

MS made a number of mistakes with the platforms, no upgrade path for hardware and software between 7 and 8 (lots of MS fanboys rage quit over this); and locking down the hardware to the extent that OEMs could only customize on the color of the back of the phone and how curved or sharp the edges were. Even without those footguns though, it was too little too late. They were a distant 3rd which resulted in very few companies being willing to port apps over. At that point they were already screwed long term.

The base OS running on lower end hardware was their only selling point then; but a few generations of newer hardware dropped the minimum hardware requirement for Android from $250 to $100 at which point being the only $100 smartphone ceased to drive sales outside the US (and anywhere else where subsidized phones weren't the norm).
Click to expand...
That's all true — I just think it all ties back to Microsoft (and particularly Ballmer) not prioritizing phones. Windows Mobile was the tool for professionals who wanted to review an Excel spreadsheet or check their Outlook mail. And let's not forget Ballmer's notorious "no chance" statements where he dismissed the iPhone because, among other things, it didn't have a hardware keyboard. And that early dismissal likely cost Microsoft not only time, but the resources needed to keep up.

While Microsoft would ideally have been focusing more on everyday users beforehand, it should have been planning a redesign of Windows Mobile the moment Steve Jobs left the stage on January 9th, 2007, even if it meant shifting the company's overall priorities. If it had, it likely would have had an answer sooner with fewer rushed decisions (such as the choices that led to the hard break between WP7 and WP8).

It also fits in with a habit of late responses to other Apple products following early dismissals, like the iPod (not until five years later!) and iPad (Windows 8 and Surface about 2.5 years later).
 
Aurelius said:
That's all true — I just think it all ties back to Microsoft (and particularly Ballmer) not prioritizing phones. Windows Mobile was the tool for professionals who wanted to review an Excel spreadsheet or check their Outlook mail. And let's not forget Ballmer's notorious "no chance" statements where he dismissed the iPhone because, among other things, it didn't have a hardware keyboard. And that early dismissal likely cost Microsoft not only time, but the resources needed to keep up.

While Microsoft would ideally have been focusing more on everyday users beforehand, it should have been planning a redesign of Windows Mobile the moment Steve Jobs left the stage on January 9th, 2007, even if it meant shifting the company's overall priorities. If it had, it likely would have had an answer sooner with fewer rushed decisions (such as the choices that led to the hard break between WP7 and WP8).

It also fits in with a habit of late responses to other Apple products following early dismissals, like the iPod (not until five years later!) and iPad (Windows 8 and Surface about 2.5 years later).
Click to expand...
they just gave up on consumer hardware. no margins there compared to VB & SQL Server, & Azure

xbox is the last holdout

in Asian regions the Microsoft managers are happy to NOT sell an xbox because each xbox sold heavily impacts their margins

at times I feel this company is doomed wrt consumer hardware. they want to have the profit margin of apple rather than mediatek
 
Hash_Immutable_1337x said:
I take this as a sign that there are people somewhere in Microsoft that recognize gamers and other general compute user are leaving Windows behind.
Maybe its a dog & pony show.. who knows...
Click to expand...
I think they're worried because "gamers," broadly generalizing, are usually "IT" for their family and set the tone going forward. Which can erode Windows even further.
 
Twisted Kidney said:
The shareholders aren't going to tolerate money being spent on Windows unless Micro$lop can prove it will deliver direct and immediate shareholder value.
Click to expand...
Considering the giant amount of money spent on windows and the giant immediate direct and indirect shareholder value of windows right now is obvious to everyone... not sure one have to worry about budget (microsoft is spending 190 billions in capital this year, you can have 2 of those, a ridiculously giant 2 billions if you want going to the Windows effort without anyone blinking a single eye and that does not include the security-compliance giant $4 billions a year budget, with windows being a very large surface getting a lot of it). Windows OEM revenues are giant with extreme high margin.

Outside the giant licensing money, it is a perfect gateway/ads toward the azure/office services of the world, you want kids to play games on windows (that why they tolerate pirated version so much), so they grow up as a default and once in school and after that in the workplace if they have to use Microsoft product it seem natural and if they ever have to choose to pick them.
 
MikeTrike said:
I think they're worried because "gamers," broadly generalizing, are usually "IT" for their family and set the tone going forward. Which can erode Windows even further.
Click to expand...

This exactly... "Gamers" are more likely to voice their opinion.. submit input to tech sites... which in return.. get more negative press on Microsoft..
"Gamers" tap that first domino in the row, and they all start falling
 
Shoganai said:
Remove the AI. Remove all the shite it comes with. Remove all the telemetry. They're not going to do any of these things. And then there's Browsergate showing the world that Microsoft was trying to steal data from half a billion users. Earn customer trust back? Are they serious? They would need to start a new company and a new operating system. The Microsoft rot starts from the inside.
Click to expand...

I just had to set up Dad's new laptop for him. First thing I did was do a massive uninstall. Even trying to download another browser you get that big honking message at the top of Edge trying to convince you not to download anything else. That is so blatantly anti-competitive it's not even funny.
 
Ididar said:
I just had to set up Dad's new laptop for him. First thing I did was do a massive uninstall. Even trying to download another browser you get that big honking message at the top of Edge trying to convince you not to download anything else. That is so blatantly anti-competitive it's not even funny.
Click to expand...
This helps a lot: https://github.com/raphire/win11debloat
 
Ididar said:
I just had to set up Dad's new laptop for him. First thing I did was do a massive uninstall. Even trying to download another browser you get that big honking message at the top of Edge trying to convince you not to download anything else. That is so blatantly anti-competitive it's not even funny.
Click to expand...
The funny thing about that is how Edge is only a niche player now, but for years Google would plug Chrome whenever you opened Google Maps or Gmail in Edge and nobody complains about that.
 
1_rick said:
The funny thing about that is how Edge is only a niche player now, but for years Google would plug Chrome whenever you opened Google Maps or Gmail in Edge and nobody complains about that.
Click to expand...
Google is blatantly anti-competitive. But legacy Edge was also a big steaming pile of dog poo.
 
1_rick said:
and nobody complains about that.
Click to expand...
Depends what we mean by nobodies.... google until OpenAI sudden growth had a lot of talk to be breaking up in many sub companies, one reason was too separate the browser from other products :

https://apnews.com/article/google-ad-network-monopoly-penalty-073faf53cd757249f83d6eddabcb8e56
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politi...t-to-break-up-company-in-search-monopoly-case

One of the proposal was for Google to be forced to sell chrome:
https://news.northeastern.edu/2024/...f Justice's proposal,web browser in the world.

All the talk of AI that treatened many of google key position in the market kind of saved them of that heat they had in 2024/2025
 
Hash_Immutable_1337x said:
I take this as a sign that there are people somewhere in Microsoft that recognize gamers and other general compute user are leaving Windows behind.
Maybe its a dog & pony show.. who knows...
Click to expand...
Something triggered this reaction and you're probably not far from the mark. I know I read the article and was thinking, "too late."
 
MikeTrike said:
You know it's bad when there's like a dozen variants of tools that do the same thing and they're all popular.

They were enough to buy me time on the s***** systems that I still have to run at home until I have more time. Even though most they don't do it unless it's fresh install... Call the cops IDGAF. :)
Click to expand...
Yeah .. that's because Windows is trash.
 
1_rick said:
The funny thing about that is how Edge is only a niche player now, but for years Google would plug Chrome whenever you opened Google Maps or Gmail in Edge and nobody complains about that.
Click to expand...

Except I would complain about that as well. I dislike anyone trying to push one product in another product, especially when I'm trying to download a competing product.
 
If Gabe bought MS I would go back. And yes MS stock would shoot through the roof overnight.
 
mullet said:
If Gabe bought MS I would go back. And yes MS stock would shoot through the roof overnight.
Click to expand...
Gabe wouldn't have the money, and stock would probably tank as his claim to fame is running a successful game store, not a modern mainstream OS or cloud services. He'd help the Xbox division while everything else suffered.
 
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