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What Happened to the 9950X3Dv2?

pendragon1 said:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfRCEeRiLI4
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“DO NOT BUY: AMD Ryzen 9 9950X3D2 CPU Review & Benchmarks | 24 Charts in 24 Hours​

This review of the AMD Ryzen 9 9950X3D2 CPU includes benchmarks and comparisons vs. the 9950X3D, 9950X (non-3D), 9800X3D and 9850X3D, and Intel's 270K Plus, alongside about 25-30 other CPUs at various points. In 24 hours, we put together 24 benchmark charts for the 9950X3D2 performance testing. The CPU, while it does perform well, is simply too expensive at $900 when considering it rarely does much of anything (if anything at all) to improve performance. We had one outlier in the results, but other than the OpenFOAM result, everything else is typically 0 to 6% improved (with sometimes no movement at all).“


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDpBuiu0ql8
 
sk3tch said:
Yeah - letting my MC pickup rot. I normally get every new AMD CPU since it's such an easy drop in upgrade and fun to toy around with...but not seeing a lot for me here.

PC hardware is such an anti-consumer wasteland right now it sucks.
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The performance results should be a surprise to no one. The pricing also should have been a surprise to no one- the X3D cache is a $150 premium that is consistent across AMD's processors, so $200 more expensive than a 9950X3D isn't unreasonable given the halo status. Claiming the 9950X3D2 is an anti-consumer product is just being entitled.

Anyone who is only gaming on Zen 4 or Zen 5 should be waiting for Zen 6. They should never have been interested in any dual-CCD product. This fulfills a niche for hybrid gaming/workstation systems and was essentially marketed as such. And also to shut everyone up claiming a symmetrical dual CCD X3D chip would be so much better in gaming and that AMD has been lying to us when they said it made no difference.
 
Tsumi said:
The performance results should be a surprise to no one. The pricing also should have been a surprise to no one- the X3D cache is a $150 premium that is consistent across AMD's processors, so $200 more expensive than a 9950X3D isn't unreasonable given the halo status. Claiming the 9950X3D2 is an anti-consumer product is just being entitled.

Anyone who is only gaming on Zen 4 or Zen 5 should be waiting for Zen 6. They should never have been interested in any dual-CCD product. This fulfills a niche for hybrid gaming/workstation systems and was essentially marketed as such. And also to shut everyone up claiming a symmetrical dual CCD X3D chip would be so much better in gaming and that AMD has been lying to us when they said it made no difference.
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9950X launch price: $599
9950X3D launch price: $699
9950X3D2 launch price: $899

X3D has always been gaming-focused - so it should not be surprising that folks had some hope that there were improvements in gaming.

The price is a surprise based on the performance results in the CPU for my particular use case.
 
zandor said:
Won't happen. Dual CCD chips will still have per CCD L3 cache. Zen6 is going to up to 12 cores per CCD though, so you'll be able to get a 12-core chip with a single cache or a 24-core setup with 2x 12-core CCDs. Zen6 is also supposed to bring big improvements to the CCD to I/O die interconnect.
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Why not? It should happen sooner or later as they get the interconnects better the penalty for having one big cache will probably only be slightly slower then Two smaller stacks one day. If that is zen 6 or not who knows
 
tunatime said:
Why not? It should happen sooner or later as they get the interconnects better the penalty for having one big cache will probably only be slightly slower then Two smaller stacks one day. If that is zen 6 or not who knows
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Nvidia and Apple SLC (system level cache) is maybe already close to what you are talking about, but that higher latency than an regular L3, on an Apple m3 ultra the penalty cost of going to a remote SLC is quite small, their interposer as like 10,000 wires, it is still 2 local cache but using it as one big cost is not that big. Nvidia keep good bandwith with the remote one, being more about that than latency.

Will have to see intel bLLC system, being below the tile, will have to see what the latency cross core via foveros look like, there will always be speed of light and distance limitation, but as you say interconnects are getting so great.
 
sk3tch said:
9950X launch price: $599
9950X3D launch price: $699
9950X3D2 launch price: $899

X3D has always been gaming-focused - so it should not be surprising that folks had some hope that there were improvements in gaming.

The price is a surprise based on the performance results in the CPU for my particular use case.
Click to expand...
9950X dropped to $550 at the time of the 9950X3D launch, so comparing launch prices is inaccurate. Meanwhile 9950X3D MSRP remains at $700, and given the market at large, it's probably only a matter of time before market pressures increase CPU prices, not lower them.

As for X3D being gaming focused- that's called sticking your head in the ground and being willfully ignorant. AMD told us directly since the 7950X3D that dual v-cache would not help gaming. 9950X3D2 for people like you is AMD going "There you go, you wanted it, and it performed exactly as we told you it would. Happy now?"
tunatime said:
Why not? It should happen sooner or later as they get the interconnects better the penalty for having one big cache will probably only be slightly slower then Two smaller stacks one day. If that is zen 6 or not who knows
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Interconnects imply the existence of multiple chips, so interconnect technology would have nothing to do with single extra large cache vs per-CCD v-cache. Improved interconnects would only be for trying to treat individual V-caches as one large continuous v-cache.

As for why not one large v-cache, it's basically for the same reason most chip manufacturers are going for the chiplet route- yields are better and keeping everything synchronized at high frequencies is easier. What I think is more likely is the implementation of an L4 cache on the I/O die like Skylake. Maybe we'll see something ridiculous like 512mb of L4 cache (Skylake had 128 mb).
 
sk3tch said:
9950X launch price: $599
9950X3D launch price: $699
9950X3D2 launch price: $899

X3D has always been gaming-focused - so it should not be surprising that folks had some hope that there were improvements in gaming.

The price is a surprise based on the performance results in the CPU for my particular use case.
Click to expand...
A 9950X3D is a 1 x 9800X3D + 1 x 9700x. Release price reflected that.

A 9950X3Dv2 is 2 x 9800X3D (actually even 9850X3D since better clocks, but I disgress), the pricing is thus totally normal, as Tsumi said.

That the extra cache doesn't do anything is no surprise either, that cache is gated behind the interconnect which hasn't changed for a long time, I don't know if they have plans for Zen 6 but it wasn't going to vanish on a Zen 5 chip.

Heck, isn't cache also more expensive now than on 9950X3D release? I'd bet it is.
 
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Tsumi said:
9950X dropped to $550 at the time of the 9950X3D launch, so comparing launch prices is inaccurate. Meanwhile 9950X3D MSRP remains at $700, and given the market at large, it's probably only a matter of time before market pressures increase CPU prices, not lower them.

As for X3D being gaming focused- that's called sticking your head in the ground and being willfully ignorant. AMD told us directly since the 7950X3D that dual v-cache would not help gaming. 9950X3D2 for people like you is AMD going "There you go, you wanted it, and it performed exactly as we told you it would. Happy now?"

Interconnects imply the existence of multiple chips, so interconnect technology would have nothing to do with single extra large cache vs per-CCD v-cache. Improved interconnects would only be for trying to treat individual V-caches as one large continuous v-cache.

As for why not one large v-cache, it's basically for the same reason most chip manufacturers are going for the chiplet route- yields are better and keeping everything synchronized at high frequencies is easier. What I think is more likely is the implementation of an L4 cache on the I/O die like Skylake. Maybe we'll see something ridiculous like 512mb of L4 cache (Skylake had 128 mb).
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You're being purposely obtuse.

X3D means gaming when you're talking consumer chips - even AMD states it: https://www.amd.com/en/products/processors/technologies/3d-v-cache.html

The costs are exactly why things are anti-consumer - factors like tariffs, AI adoption, etc are squeezing out consumers. It isn't like I made some crazy proclamation there, lol. But yeah, white knight for corporations, I guess?

EDIT: changed my mind forgot they have combos. For the 9850X3D I was able to pay $50 for the upgrade in the end since I sold the old CPU (9800X3D) and the new mobo and RAM that came in the combo. I'm just doing that again. Once I get it installed I will cry that the extra cache doesn't do anything for gaming - authoritatively. :p
 
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If the scheduler were working properly, the 9950X3Dv2 would perform better, including in games.
As some tests show, when the software isn’t dependent on the scheduler, the 9950X3Dv2 can perform much better.
But as we know, that can’t happen in the real world. AMD knows this, but they’re releasing this product anyway simply because there’s so much interest in it.

The next generation is where things get interesting, because that’s where the bottleneck known as Infinity Fabric will be addressed.
 
sk3tch said:
You're being purposely obtuse.

X3D means gaming when you're talking consumer chips - even AMD states it: https://www.amd.com/en/products/processors/technologies/3d-v-cache.html

The costs are exactly why things are anti-consumer - factors like tariffs, AI adoption, etc are squeezing out consumers. It isn't like I made some crazy proclamation there, lol. But yeah, white knight for corporations, I guess?

EDIT: changed my mind forgot they have combos. For the 9850X3D I was able to pay $50 for the upgrade in the end since I sold the old CPU (9800X3D) and the new mobo and RAM that came in the combo. I'm just doing that again. Once I get it installed I will cry that the extra cache doesn't do anything for gaming - authoritatively. :p
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Just buy Process Lasso.
You can also use the free version, but it only saves settings for a few programs.
 
AVATARAT said:
Just buy Process Lasso.
You can also use the free version, but it only saves settings for a few programs.
Click to expand...
I've had it since the 7950X3D (and ParkControl - both purchased). Not really practical. The 9950X3D "fixed" any concerns that I had with the dual CCDs and only one having the extra cache.
 
kalston said:
A 9950X3D is a 1 x 9800X3D + 1 x 9700x. Release price reflected that.

A 9950X3Dv2 is 2 x 9800X3D (actually even 9850X3D since better clocks, but I disgress), the pricing is thus totally normal, as Tsumi said.
Click to expand...

The problem is you can't use MSRP at release when comparing them, especially when they released the new "flagship" a full year after the rest of the X3D CPUs.

1776976180627.png

Paying $150 more for one CCD of extra cache, OK, then you want another $250 for the 2nd CCD, that doesn't make any sense. It being an 80% price increase over the non-3D chip is just a terrible look when comparing overall performance.
 
AVATARAT said:
This manages SMT threads better, but only threads—it doesn't have as many options as Lasso.
https://github.com/SimonvBez/CPUSetSetter
I saw it from JTC.
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Nice. My post above was just a joke RE: complaining that vcache on both CCDs isn't doing anything much for gaming. My 9950X3D is great, but just fun to play with new stuff. At $900 I wasn't gonna do it but since I can get a combo at MC for $1200 and sell my old CPU, the new mobo, and the new RAM it'll be worth it for something new to tinker with.
 
sk3tch said:
You're being purposely obtuse.

X3D means gaming when you're talking consumer chips - even AMD states it: https://www.amd.com/en/products/processors/technologies/3d-v-cache.html

The costs are exactly why things are anti-consumer - factors like tariffs, AI adoption, etc are squeezing out consumers. It isn't like I made some crazy proclamation there, lol. But yeah, white knight for corporations, I guess?

EDIT: changed my mind forgot they have combos. For the 9850X3D I was able to pay $50 for the upgrade in the end since I sold the old CPU (9800X3D) and the new mobo and RAM that came in the combo. I'm just doing that again. Once I get it installed I will cry that the extra cache doesn't do anything for gaming - authoritatively. :p
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It's not white knighting, it's being realistic. Supply chain costs are going up for everyone and companies can't be expected to eat costs just for the sake of the consumer. A product released at a price point you're unwilling to pay is not inherently anti-consumer. Anti-consumer practices are what memory companies did- purposefully decreasing output to lower supply and drive up prices.

The dual CCD X3D processors have always been marketed as dual purpose workstation and gaming processors. It's a you problem if you choose to only focus on the gaming marketing. And AMD never marketed the V2 as significantly improving gaming performance.
 
tunatime said:
Why not? It should happen sooner or later as they get the interconnects better the penalty for having one big cache will probably only be slightly slower then Two smaller stacks one day. If that is zen 6 or not who knows
Click to expand...
I just mean for Zen 6. Word is L3 is going up 50% per CCD. After that? Who knows.
 
pendragon1 said:
ok... from what i was hearing he was just explaining that lopsidedness....
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Well he completely dismissed them as viable options which is what is ridiculous. I have two systems with 8 core X3D and 1 with 16 core X3D lopsided (up until yesterday) - gaming performance was just as elite across all 3 with the benefit of 16 cores for when you need to do non-gaming.
 
sk3tch said:
Well he completely dismissed them as viable options which is what is ridiculous. I have two systems with 8 core X3D and 1 with 16 core X3D lopsided (up until yesterday) - gaming performance was just as elite across all 3 with the benefit of 16 cores for when you need to do non-gaming.
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well thats just like his opinion, man... ;)
 
So this apparently could give me a small albeit improvement in encoding (which I also do besides gaming) - about 2% or so from what I saw - not 'worth it' in the sense of pricing but 'worth it' if I wanted the absolute best/fastest without going Threadripper/etc - hope for the next Zen 6 release they just do dual cache CCDs/chips at least for the top end and get rid of the one CCD/cache version
 
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XTM70 cured fast - no red this time - nearly a 30 min round of Fortnite. Really nice. A lot of credit goes to the Arctic Liquid Freezer II 280 it's a beast compared to the NZXT junk I have in other rigs.

You can see (based on temp) which core gets preferred by Fortnite, lol.
 

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sk3tch said:
XTM70 cured fast - no red this time - nearly a 30 min round of Fortnite. Really nice. A lot of credit goes to the Arctic Liquid Freezer II 280 it's a beast compared to the NZXT junk I have in other rigs.

You can see (based on temp) which core gets preferred by Fortnite, lol.
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NZXT Kraken is good for Intel CPUs, because they are not flat as Ryzen.
 
Meeho said:
Are those test reflective or real world usage? They seem quite synthetic and atomized, but I am not familiar with the field to know.
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My comment was that this CPU is more for workstation use than gaming and those guys build custom workstations so their tests are more aligned to the use case than Bob’s Xtreme Gaming Review Channel.
 
I just installed mine and ran timespy. Pretty pleased with it.

Cpu: AMD 9950x3d2, 16 core, dual cache.
Memory: G-Skill DDR5 6000 CL26, 48 gig.
Motherboard: Msi X670E Tomahawk.
Graphics: AsRock 7900xtx, 550-watt bios.
Power Supply: Seasonic 1600 watt.
Operating system: Windows 10 Pro.
Main Drive: Samsung 9100 Pro, 4tb.
Movie Drive: Seagate 24tb.
Case: Thermaltake W100.
Monitor: 32", 300hz.
 

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With the 9950X3D at $575 (limited time sale at Amazon), this makes even less sense. I'm still waiting for 12-core Zen 6 though, Zen 5 isn't enough of an improvement over my 7800X3D.
 
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Tsumi said:
With the 9950X3D at $575 (limited time sale at Amazon), this makes even less sense. I'm still waiting for 12-core Zen 6 though, Zen 5 isn't enough of an improvement over my 7800X3D.
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That's crazy. I've had so much fun going from 7800X3D > 9800X3D > 9850X3D and 7800X3D > 9950X3D > 9950X3DV2 (and similar on two other rigs). Get the new CPU, sell the old - barely costs that much. The difference from the 7xxxX3D series is pretty huge, IMO.

$357.80 after everything was said and done for me to go 9950X3D to 9950X3D2 and that was even an upgrade I wasn't too jazzed about. I am glad that I did - zero hiccups (less than $50 to move from 9800X3D to 9850X3D FWIW). Just buy combos and sell the extra stuff. You help people along the way, too....

I remember when people were bemoaning AM5 versus AM4. The MC combos were so cheap I went out and moved every rig to AM5 and made a profit selling my AM4 stuff (especially the DDR4 b-die crap).

I get it - scientifcally it is not worth the jump. But I don't know another hobby where you can have the best for such a reasonable cost overall.
 
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sk3tch said:
That's crazy. I've had so much fun going from 7800X3D > 9800X3D > 9850X3D and 7800X3D > 9950X3D > 9950X3DV2 (and similar on two other rigs). Get the new CPU, sell the old - barely costs that much. The difference from the 7xxxX3D series is pretty huge, IMO.

$357.80 after everything was said and done for me to go 9950X3D to 9950X3D2 and that was even an upgrade I wasn't too jazzed about. I am glad that I did - zero hiccups (less than $50 to move from 9800X3D to 9850X3D FWIW). Just buy combos and sell the extra stuff. You help people along the way, too....

I remember when people were bemoaning AM5 versus AM4. The MC combos were so cheap I went out and moved every rig to AM5 and made a profit selling my AM4 stuff (especially the DDR4 b-die crap).

I get it - scientifcally it is not worth the jump. But I don't know another hobby where you can have the best for such a reasonable cost overall.
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Makes sense when you consider my previous CPU was an E5-1680V2, which itself was an upgrade from an i7-4930k after having it for about 6 years. Also it's a fair bit of work for me to swap out core components due to the watercooling. And Microcenter only came to my region a year ago so it's not like I had cheap combos to take advantage of.
 
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