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Star Citizen - media blowout, Chris Robert's new game

Bawjaws said:
Not trying to dunk on you, but haven't people been saying this for, well, years now?
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They have, which is one of the reasons that people give this game crap. It isn't like when they started work on it, or even some time into development, they said "Right, so this is a huge project and we are thinking it is going to be a decade or more to complete." There have been numerous "We are getting close, lol just kidding," type of things.

Particularly for Squadron 42. So this is allegedly a single play, story driven, game of average size, like 30-40 hours. That is the kind of thing that shouldn't take all that long to do. I mean games like that regularly get made in 3-5 years all the time from concept to completion, and here you already have a lot more than that, you have an engine, art, etc. Yet it keeps getting pushed back and just earlier in this thread there's a dev saying they think they might not make the 2026 target.


Also the comparisons to GTA 6 might not be the gotcha that people think: I've seen plenty of gamers shit on Rockstar and claim (correctly IMO) that they are milking the GTA Online mode and not working very hard on trying to actually get GTA 6 out the door.
 
I've seen enough over the years since they started to recognize the real tone change. They allowed a press release that said they'd be doing everything they can to see it out in 2026... since they're always a year behind on their estimates, I'd say early 2027 if we're lucky, late 2027 if not. Unless for once they surprise everyone.

And I didn't mean that GTA6 was a gotcha, just that one of the closest comparable projects in scope (and GTA6 isn't really) has taken almost as long in today's development environment.

Anyway, I'm not sticking up for it at this point the whole thing has gone way deep into overtime but I definitely see the tone change at the top about SQ42.

The persistent universe will be a forever thing. It's more a matter of if it ever reaches a point of really solid gameplay loops.

That's also where SQ42 releasing will be a tell all moment. Any assets they've been holding back to keep the single player story from being spoiled won't be an excuse anymore.
 
Advil said:
It takes a game like GTA nearly a decade and hundreds of millions to sort out the open world it uses. What SC is doing with their engine and servers is absurdly more complex.
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I could hire thousands of the best engineers in the world and pay them top dollar year after year to do better (like not switch engines when features go outside of scope) and still have hundreds of millions left over. It's a scam :(


Bwhahahah I can't help myself. One of the main features of Lumberyard was AWS and Twitch integration. Spend hundreds of thousands, maybe millions for a Twitch feature...in a game nobody cares about on Twitch. And forgive me for not keeping up with this game more than once a year, but now it's on its 3rd engine? It's like a stick with bait on it, just gotta keep moving the stick and putting fresh bait on.


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Every year or two we go through this in this thread.
Haters hate and try to bait the people who enjoy it.

If you hate the game and don't like it, we've heard it, you can move on now, its been more than a decade.
We've heard and echo most if not all of the concerns.

If people want to enjoy it great, why do you care so much if they do?
No need to answer out loud, solve that for yourself and be free.
 
Ripskin said:
Every year or two we go through this in this thread.
Haters hate and try to bait the people who enjoy it.

If you hate the game and don't like it, we've heard it, you can move on now, its been more than a decade.
We've heard and echo most if not all of the concerns.

If people want to enjoy it great, why do you care so much if they do?
No need to answer out loud, solve that for yourself and be free.
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Every year or two we go through this in this thread.
Backers cope and try to bait the people who knew it was too good to be true.

If you backed the game and like it, we've heard it, you can move on now, its been more than a decade.

If people want to hate on it great, why do you care so much if they do?
No need to answer out loud, solve that for yourself and be free.

:D

In all seriousness, this is a discussion forum for PC gamers and hardware enthusiasts…seems only natural that one of the most infamous, drawn out and expensive projects in all of gaming history, by a well-known developer, that’s unlike anything else in terms of its scope and development time and ability to somehow stay funded with endless extended promises, would invoke a lot of discussion - both positive and negative. This is much different and far beyond something like DNF, which itself generated a ton of discussion online and its fair share of critics.

Personally, I don’t have a horse in this race, but it sure is an entertaining one to watch lol
 
Some people enjoy playing this buggy, janky, mismanaged game. My friends play it. I try to play it every 2 years and it's still unplayable to me. If it were not so janky I'd enjoy it too. Either way it's still a billion dollar scam they used to buy themselves mansions.
 
I just don't want this to become normalized anymore.

We used to stand behind "stop preordering buggy games" to "lets pay companies for barely started games in the hopes it comes out". And this business model is going to become such a toxic poison to the gaming experience over time.

There needs (i hate more government) protections in place to not let companies milk money without producing a retail product after so much time. I dunno, I just hate everything about this development model so much and it just shows the world that you can make money first, and produce a product second.

This really is the kind of game i've always wanted, but haven't hopped on board yet, been stung too many times backing games early.
 
Darunion said:
There needs (i hate more government) protections in place to not let companies milk money without producing a retail product after so much time. I dunno, I just hate everything about this development model so much and it just shows the world that you can make money first, and produce a product second.
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Market is as customer does. I loathe the current state of many affairs (don't get me started on cars), but it is what it is. I am an old fart with a backlog of unplayed and great to be replayed old games to last me several lifetimes, so it can all continue to go to shit and I won't shed a tear. I will keep on shitting on it all and yell at the clouds, though.

As for Cocaine Citizen, I consider it a continuous review of a bad service I paid for.
 
Advil said:
It takes a game like GTA nearly a decade and hundreds of millions to sort out the open world it uses. What SC is doing with their engine and servers is absurdly more complex.

If you think backing a potentially impossible project is a scam. Cool. You may be right.

If you think what they are doing us ground breaking win or lose, you can also be right.

I think for the general public gamer and not the backer of the vision types a big test is going to happen when Squadron 42 comes out... Which will be this year or next imho the inside looks and dev blogs do seem on the home stretch.

Even without the online MMO aspects it "should" hit as the most technically advanced single player interactive game ever released by a wide margin and generate buzz as being an actual advance to gaming. If it doesn't, the ability to generate money for endless development of the persistent universe and the next 2 installments of Squadron 42 will peter out and die.
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I think there's a chance the game ships and I expect if it does a lot of people will be like, "I hate to say I told you so but ..."


View: https://youtu.be/r7hnsQcAW_w

That said, they said the game will ship in 2 years during the KS. Let's not deny that this game has suffered an epic level of scope creep to the point where it could result in a billion dollars of other people's money being lost. Many of whom probably can't afford to be buying thousand dollar star ship packs. I have no skin in the game, I just think it's funny seeing people argue on the Internet.
 
tunatime said:
And this is why the game will never come out. They are still in alpha after 11 years. Not even to the point where they want to stop adding stuff and move to the beta stage.

Only chance this has is if someone removes Robert's like they did for freelancer
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Though I think this is okay, VR is quite immersive for this type of game. I thought it was already added.
 
infojunkie said:
Release date or any other announcements or excuses? I thought sq42 was coming out this year.
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I mean... SQ42 has been coming out for over a decade now. The OG release date was 2014, then that got pushed to 2020, that got missed and they said "No more release dates until it is ready." Then in 2023 they said it was "feature complete" implying it would come out soon, then some silence and eventually the 2026 date, and now more silence. You really can't take any date they say seriously, they have blown past so many. It's one of those situations where don't believe it'll be out until it is out. When (if) it is available on Steam to purchase and download, then it's out. Until then, take everything with an entire bag of salt.
 
Sycraft said:
I mean... SQ42 has been coming out for over a decade now. The OG release date was 2014, then that got pushed to 2020, that got missed and they said "No more release dates until it is ready." Then in 2023 they said it was "feature complete" implying it would come out soon, then some silence and eventually the 2026 date, and now more silence. You really can't take any date they say seriously, they have blown past so many. It's one of those situations where don't believe it'll be out until it is out. When (if) it is available on Steam to purchase and download, then it's out. Until then, take everything with an entire bag of salt.
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And last I checked even Squadron 42 is planned to be a beta "release" now. So when it comes out, it will probably be in rough shape for 1-2 years.
 
Sycraft said:
I mean... SQ42 has been coming out for over a decade now. The OG release date was 2014, then that got pushed to 2020, that got missed and they said "No more release dates until it is ready." Then in 2023 they said it was "feature complete" implying it would come out soon, then some silence and eventually the 2026 date, and now more silence. You really can't take any date they say seriously, they have blown past so many. It's one of those situations where don't believe it'll be out until it is out. When (if) it is available on Steam to purchase and download, then it's out. Until then, take everything with an entire bag of salt.
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Aka a scam
Or Chris is the worst manager/ceo in history.

I remember being so hyped up about this game.......Feels like a life time ago now since I had that look of wonder when I looked at the Kickstarter. Now it's just a meme and people that cling to hope that it will somehow come out and be good.. they should be on SC 2 or even 3 by now yet it early alpha still.....I'm not really sure what else to say
 
tunatime said:
Aka a scam
Or Chris is the worst manager/ceo in history.
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I think the latter, rather than the former. I don't think he ever set out to scam people and I still don't think he's trying to. It is just that Chris Roberts cannot keep from going apeshit with scope creep. He had that problem in the past with Freelancer. MS eventually had to kick him off the project and get the game finished and shipped because he kept trying to make it bigger and bigger and do more and it was taking too long and getting too expensive.

You could already see it in the Kickstarter: They were promising the universe and I chose not to back it because I felt there was no way they could deliver on all that, it was too much. Even if you have a ton of funding, there are limits to how many things you are going to be able to put in one game. It's the old ditch digging parable that if it take 1 man 100 hours to dig a ditch 100 men will not dig that same ditch in 1 hour, there's a limit to how many additional people you can throw at something and have it help.

Chris Roberts and George Broussard (Duke Nukem) show why publishers can be important: Sometimes if you just let creative people run wild, they will truly run wild, nothing will ever be good enough, nothing will ever be done, and you don't get a product. There's value to the business and project management side of things that says "No, we are doing it on this time scale, with this budget, these things need to be scaled back and cut to make that." It's easy to hear about cut content and get mad and say "Why didn't they just give the devs more time, it could have been so much better!" but at some point, you have to ship a product. The game that is out and I can play is infinitely better than the project that sounds cool, but never gets off the ground.
 
What is the current status of the, er.... game? I havnt looked at the progress in a few years.

Hows the rendering, game play, etc? What's the current $$ buy in?
 
Sycraft said:
I think the latter, rather than the former. I don't think he ever set out to scam people and I still don't think he's trying to. It is just that Chris Roberts cannot keep from going apeshit with scope creep. He had that problem in the past with Freelancer. MS eventually had to kick him off the project and get the game finished and shipped because he kept trying to make it bigger and bigger and do more and it was taking too long and getting too expensive.

You could already see it in the Kickstarter: They were promising the universe and I chose not to back it because I felt there was no way they could deliver on all that, it was too much. Even if you have a ton of funding, there are limits to how many things you are going to be able to put in one game. It's the old ditch digging parable that if it take 1 man 100 hours to dig a ditch 100 men will not dig that same ditch in 1 hour, there's a limit to how many additional people you can throw at something and have it help.

Chris Roberts and George Broussard (Duke Nukem) show why publishers can be important: Sometimes if you just let creative people run wild, they will truly run wild, nothing will ever be good enough, nothing will ever be done, and you don't get a product. There's value to the business and project management side of things that says "No, we are doing it on this time scale, with this budget, these things need to be scaled back and cut to make that." It's easy to hear about cut content and get mad and say "Why didn't they just give the devs more time, it could have been so much better!" but at some point, you have to ship a product. The game that is out and I can play is infinitely better than the project that sounds cool, but never gets off the ground.
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Exactly this, and that's why everyone who knew Robert's MO stayed the heck away. He literally can not accept less then his vision demands.
 
I don't think it's a scam as such, but the longer this project takes the more will Chris Roberts earn on his salary as the CEO and he has also been paid for his intellectual rights AFAIK. I'd venture a guess and say he's been well compensated for both of these things.

So there's really no need to speed things up seen from his point of view.
 
Eivind68 said:
I don't think it's a scam as such, but the longer this project takes the more will Chris Roberts earn on his salary as the CEO and he has also been paid for his intellectual rights AFAIK. I'd venture a guess and say he's been well compensated for both of these things.

So there's really no need to speed things up seen from his point of view.
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Baiting and switching is the most basic scam of all. Doing it for 15 years is impressive. Look at Mark Kern as a similar example. "Oh he was just a bad manager. There were signs in the past. I think it was just incompetence." Then he does a bait and switch fundraiser on his own lol
 
I think the continued sale of multi hundred or thousand dollar virtual ships is a scam. I don't think the project as a whole is a scam, though.
 
gamerk2 said:
Exactly this, and that's why everyone who knew Robert's MO stayed the heck away. He literally can not accept less then his vision demands.
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And that vision realistically can't be delivered. In part because it is too ambitious, it is something that there just isn't a realistic way to do in a game no matter what. Also in part because it keeps changing, he finds something new to latch on to and spend time on which means it isn't a fixed, if lofty, vision, it is an ever-changing goal which means it isn't reachable since it can keep morphing. Finally it just ends up with the problem of time: Technology is a moving target meaning that work you did 10 years ago doesn't translate well to today and you have to do more work to bring things up to date. The longer a project goes on, the more time is spent porting things to new technology and less on new development. The tech debt slows things way down.

MavericK said:
I think the continued sale of multi hundred or thousand dollar virtual ships is a scam. I don't think the project as a whole is a scam, though.
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True, that part is a scam.
 
What I've always thought suspicious is the investor group that invested 40 million dollars or something back in 2020, or thereabouts. Why did they do that? They are not allowed to earn anything from a project as this, since it is a Kickstarter one and is supposedly like a charity legally, and they supposedly even had a demand that Squadron 42 had to be finished in 2022, which of course never happened.
So what is the reason they invested? How are they to make their money back, and then some? Why have they let the supposed deadline for S-42 just pass without loudly complaining? 🤔

Was it just a loan?
 
MavericK said:
I think the continued sale of multi hundred or thousand dollar virtual ships is a scam. I don't think the project as a whole is a scam, though.
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100% agree with the first part, but I think I disagree with the second slightly. I don't think it started as a scam but I do think it's become one now, as Roberts has realised that he can keep this gravy train rolling to the tune of millions of dollars a month without having to ever deliver a finished product.
 
Elf_Boy said:
What is the current status of the, er.... game? I havnt looked at the progress in a few years.

Hows the rendering, game play, etc? What's the current $$ buy in?
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$45 for a game pack and ship.
Servers 500-1000 people each
3 Systems
Mining, Cargo, Salvage, Medical, Refeul, bounty, pvp, story missions are all functional and implemented.
Plenty of orgs to join and always events or people doing multicrew and multi ship operations on the servers.


But its a terrible scam, because reasons.
 
Elf_Boy said:
What is the current status of the, er.... game? I havnt looked at the progress in a few years.

Hows the rendering, game play, etc? What's the current $$ buy in?
Click to expand...
Short answer is - you have full access to the alpha build, which is at its largest a "vertical slice" that allows freeform play (referred to as the 'public universe" MMO style), among a variety of smaller "game with a game" separate single maps focused on specific, smaller match-like gameplay. The MMO slice has a considerable variety of ship types currerntly flyable (easily over 100), various game loops and systems that are iterated upon with each patch (you can take missions for NPC factions that, in addition to various forms of space combat including multi-crewed craft and on-foot combat, can also fall into hauling/trading (complete with physicalized, physics responsive cargo containers that need to be properly stored and locked down in your hold to keeep from flying around your ship and doing damage in a quasi-realistic fashion) mining/refining, salvaging/repair, piracy/crimestat/bounty hunting, medical gameplay and more; medical just got an expansion of mechanics/depth in a recent patch, player crafting/fabrication just arrived, but some mechanics like exploration/stellar cartography and jump point charting aren't in as of yet, among others). Taking on these various missions reward "aUEC" the alpha's version of universal currency which allows players to buy everything from ships to equipment and consumables.

Generally mechanics are added in a simpler "arcade-y" style and then refined to their immersive intention as development continues, so the way a given system works when it first arrives in the game is not likely its end form. The earliest medical gameplay was simple "save at/respawn at" locations, one dimensional health tools and stims etc.. but now there are varying levels of wounds or incapacitations that can only be healed properly at a higher tier medbeds if serious enough, and besides the standard 'health' bar tools and stims, there are a variety of medications and treatments necessary to fix or at least give temporary relief to certain afflictions, but if used incorrectly with too large a dose or too often can lead to harm being done, withdrawal, or necessity for subsequent treatments. This is not the final configuration, as there are other features and related systems such as semi/permanent afflictions, permadeath counters, and more. Likewise, new ships (or revamped versions of ships) appear usually via an introduction on the website first and "concept" period, but this has vastly shortened that many ships and variants debut within an upcoming month's patch, ready to fly . Some older ship models have gone through significantly expanded and overhauled designs over the years, more in line with the capability and scope of the game mechanics and engine. The public universe also has a variety of both in and out of game cycling hoiidays and events, including those that offer unique and thematic missions which, when completed, can convey special account-bound rewards. Patches also include updates to backend systems that may add new features or built towards future targets due to the complexity involved; often some technical update can mean a significant QoL or performance improvement...once its bugs are ironed out, of course. Optimization and rendering have improved along with many other technical updates (they even came out with the first VR support last year, someting many felt was either off the table or would not show up until much later!) , but between the fidelity of the engine, leaving debug features enabled etc.. its still a demanding title that can put [H]ard rigs to work (this is a game that doesn't only depend on GPU, but can make use of CPU and especially RAM) , yet is far less cumbersome than even a few years ago as technical improvements have come along and I suspect this will continue as new features and optimizations move towards launch.

While the game is by no means finished, the complexity of the design and "real' alpha nature means sometimes there are bugs, and I don't always agree with some decisions CIG makes (monetization/FOMO/exclusivity are personal issues of concern that CIG wil over its long dev process, adopt predatory behavior that has become normalized in the rest of the gaming industry, but that's its own discussion), but there's a very playable alpha in which I have a lot of fun; testing that any backer can engage as little or as much as they wish, as the game moves towards a live, launched state (the point where characters and in-game progression will not be wiped, all core mechanics are present , and things start to 'count' in terms of certain systems,) where their game key and any account bound content, be it purchased or earned otherwise will be just as viable. Some players may only drop by occasionally to check in on new features, mechanics and the like and others may play it frequently as any other immersive MMO. There is obvious, steady development progression and especially for those who enjoy the immersion/RP/lore elements of depth, there's not much else like it out there and it remains a unique experience that appears to be continuing to move forward.

I should also touch on the separate-but-connected companion game, Squadron 42. This is a single player, story based cinematic campaign similar to Roberts' previous projects like Wing Commander; completing its campaigns will provide benefits to your StarCitizen MMO character both in terms of in-game faction, pay, and other compensation as its framed as the player character serving in the UEE Navy and then when the campaign is over going back to 'reserve' status and free to go about the universe. In comparison to the in depth development specifics of SC, SQ42's updates are less detailed in order to keep spoilers to a minimum, but still are frequently covered in their own newsletter. Announced last October at CitizenCon, SQ42 has a proper "hard" release date of by the end of 2026 . While its not impossible it could be pushed farther, the CitCon official release date announcement has been far more formalized than any of the previous discussions which were under different context. SQ42 is a separate title and all the way back during the start of crowdfunding it was said that each game was said to sell for equal to a AAA priced title at launch, but of course CIG's long standing policy of "those who come early, get extra stuff and cheaper" some who may hav purchased a game package in the mid 2010s for $35 had it include both SC and SQ42, or years later could have bough it a $15 add-on to their $35-45 game packages. If by Sept / October we start seeing players allowed to purchase SQ42 pledges again, that's a pretty solid confirmation it will debut by the end of the year.

---
Current buy in starts at around $45 and goes up depending on a few things. In general you'll need a 'game package', that is to say a StarCitizen account key, a ship, hangar, and a few othe goodies. Its worth noting that a game package Three paths that will get you some of the best bang for your buck

1. Monthly / patch event "starter packages" -- while there are standard Game Packages, there are usually some special patch or month's even "starter package". These tend to be discounted, give you some extra goodies (maybe some player equipment/armor, ship cosmetics, and often have a considerably longer bit of prepaid hull insurance. Hull insurance is a policy so that if your ship is blown up/stolen/otherwise incpacitated and junked you get a replacement right in its basic out-of-the-dealer configuration. There will also be other kinds of insurance policies like those that cover your upgrades, cargo, etc... All insurance is made to be paid with in-game UEC cash NOT real world money. This is basically a "gold sink" consumable mechanic not unlike buying ammo or other consumable resources. Backers just get some 'bonus' insurance months prepaid by backing before launch that can range from 1 month to "LTI -lifetime insurance"; its all the same coverage, but you just save that bit of in-game currency. Note that insurance policies and their renewal do not yet count down; its presumed that until the game goes 'live' those pledges with insurance of one kind or another will not start counting down) Anyway, promotional starter packages are a good way to get some extras for your cash and often save some money too, vs the 'normal' game packages made for new players that include a game account key.

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/en/pledge/Packages/Citizen-Starter-Pack-Warbond - $45 - a quintessential starter ship with the brand new Aurora MKII, a special promo color paint, some other gear, and even LTI since the Aurora MKII is just announced/concept sale (and flyable!)

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/en/pledge/Packages/Miner-Keystone-Starter-Pack-Warbond - $67.50 - If you want to look into mining, here's a starter pack that's part of the Keystone trade focused industrial promo, so you get the Golem which is a starter mining focused ship but given its larger cargo potential its a bit more expensive, a promo paint, some gear, and 24 month insurance on it

2. "special event / sale" packages - When the major in-game events come around (and many cycle. Some of the biggest ones are the IAE in November and the Invictus Fleet Week event in May, but we just had Stella Fortuna the St Patrick's holiday event which also aligned with a racing-focus bit of content too, Feb had the Valentines event, the winter holidays/Luminalia were in December etc.) they have promotional starter packages too, with similar benefits. These are a bit less frequent compared to the monthly/patch ones, but may offer more variety if you buy when going on depending.

3. Buy a package from another player, especially those with "legacy" packages that include SC + SQ42 keys in them - some longer standing backers have packages on their account or buyback queue that are unique and/or good values. Many sell them for 'gray market' prices, but for [H] and other communities I make them available at cost..

In any event if you want to give it a shot, let me know. I can not only provide a referral code to provide some extra goodies, plus I can likely acquire a special skin for whichever ship/package you pick atop the others.

Hope this helps. Overall, its a game I've had lots of fun with over the years ; going in informed and with realistic expectations as to the scope, scale, and risk of the project is the best way to approach

Edit: I was writing a reply to others discussing other facets of the game's monetization designs, but I'll put that in another post as this is already long enough.
 
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Bawjaws said:
100% agree with the first part, but I think I disagree with the second slightly. I don't think it started as a scam but I do think it's become one now, as Roberts has realised that he can keep this gravy train rolling to the tune of millions of dollars a month without having to ever deliver a finished product.
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I'm not even sure that it is a case where he thinks he can just keep the gravy train rolling. I mean after all, if he released an awesome game and kept selling stupid expensive ships after release, hey the train keeps rolling too. Like it might even make more with a wider audience. I think it's two things:

1) The biggest is just his perfectionism, and the fact that they are NOWHERE near done and polished. He wants to keep working, keep making it better (though at this point I'm questioning if technical debt has grown to the point improvement is hard) etc. Same problem as always, it's never done because it is never good enough and it is never good enough because he's always able to find more shit he wants in it.

2) I think there's a small part of him that knows that it is way, WAY far away from being a release quality game. Not only does it have shitloads of bugs, but it has a real lack of content. It has one system basically. So long as it is "alpha" and "in development" people will defend it with just that. They'll say "It's fine, it isn't done yet! Iet's still fun, I'm happy!" However if it actually releases, suddenly these things will get a ton of scrutiny, and people who buy the game will NOT be happy. He has to know, even if he doesn't acknowledge it, that keeping it in an "early access" state helps deflect the criticism.


Personally I fully expect the game to be in a forever-development state until the money runs out. At some point there won't be any more investor capital, and the sales of ships and such will dry up to the point it can't sustain the company, even cut back. At that point I expect they'll make a push to fix as many of the game breaking bugs as possible in a short time, toss a coat of paint on it, and release whatever they have and call it good.
 
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