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Everquest Legends

June 2026 I wonder if this the Game Dark Paw been working on past few years and thats it?
 
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Of all the things from 2000 I don't miss... I don't miss the the most :p

Everquest was such a shit design for an MMO. We didn't have anything better at the time, but there's a reason why games like WoW were what took off to massive player number and not it.
 
Sycraft said:
Of all the things from 2000 I don't miss... I don't miss the the most :p

Everquest was such a shit design for an MMO. We didn't have anything better at the time, but there's a reason why games like WoW were what took off to massive player number and not it.
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Weird take. Considering EQ, some would argue Ultima(they are wrong), paved the way to WoW to bring MMORPGs to the masses. But yeah, nostalgia on this one, is nothing but pain and suffering in todays gaming environment. MMO's in general now tbh.
 
4saken said:
Weird take. Considering EQ, some would argue Ultima(they are wrong), paved the way to WoW to bring MMORPGs to the masses. But yeah, nostalgia on this one, is nothing but pain and suffering in todays gaming environment. MMO's in general now tbh.
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I mean yes it did but that doesn't make it a good game IMO. I, and others I know, played it in spite of its design. The idea of an MMO was cool, their implementation was not. I have no desire to go back and play it.
 
Sycraft said:
I mean yes it did but that doesn't make it a good game IMO. I, and others I know, played it in spite of its design. The idea of an MMO was cool, their implementation was not. I have no desire to go back and play it.
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In comparison to what at that time? It was groundbreaking. In hindsight with later MMORPGs, sure. But not remotely fair imo. It's like saying Tecmo bowl had crap graphics.
 
4saken said:
In comparison to what at that time? It was groundbreaking. In hindsight with later MMORPGs, sure. But not remotely fair imo. It's like saying Tecmo bowl had crap graphics.
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It had lots of shitty, unfun, systems in it that didn't need to be there. Some of the top ones I can think of (bearing in mind it has been literal decades since I played):

  • Having to sit on the ground and stare at a book where you could see nothing to regen mana until an arbitrary level.
  • Spells "fizzling" and failing to cast until you had enough "skill", oh but your skill was capped by level so at low levels you just couldn't be good enough to prevent it.
  • Likewise not being able to figure out where the fuck you were because your "sense direction" skill couldn't be leveled high enough to work reliably at low levels.
  • Having to eat and drink because it was "realistic". At low levels, it was a serious resource sink and it could be trouble having enough money for it, at high levels it was just an annoyance, something you wasted time on that added nothing to gameplay.
  • The fact that you lost all your gear, and could lose an unlimited amount of experience if you repeatedly died, meaning that you could literally be completely wiped out if you kept dying and couldn't get someone to help you.
  • Absolute garbage class balance.
The thing is, most of these things were things that were fixed in single player games, so you could look at the non-MMO RPGs out there and know that you had a bad design. Game had moved on from the "losing lives until you have to restart the game" thing from the arcades to suck quarters and instead what with quick saving you generally had a situation where if you died you couldn't progress, but you weren't set back a big amount, you just tried the challenge again.

There was just a lot of bad design in it, and what I'd categorize as very hostile design. The game felt hostile towards its players, and attitude its GMs seemed to share.

I've had times where I've thought of going back and replaying some old MMOs for nostalgia, but EQ has never been one of them. Once I left it (for DAoC) I never went back.
 
Sycraft said:
It had lots of shitty, unfun, systems in it that didn't need to be there. Some of the top ones I can think of (bearing in mind it has been literal decades since I played):

  • Having to sit on the ground and stare at a book where you could see nothing to regen mana until an arbitrary level.
  • Spells "fizzling" and failing to cast until you had enough "skill", oh but your skill was capped by level so at low levels you just couldn't be good enough to prevent it.
  • Likewise not being able to figure out where the fuck you were because your "sense direction" skill couldn't be leveled high enough to work reliably at low levels.
  • Having to eat and drink because it was "realistic". At low levels, it was a serious resource sink and it could be trouble having enough money for it, at high levels it was just an annoyance, something you wasted time on that added nothing to gameplay.
  • The fact that you lost all your gear, and could lose an unlimited amount of experience if you repeatedly died, meaning that you could literally be completely wiped out if you kept dying and couldn't get someone to help you.
  • Absolute garbage class balance.
The thing is, most of these things were things that were fixed in single player games, so you could look at the non-MMO RPGs out there and know that you had a bad design. Game had moved on from the "losing lives until you have to restart the game" thing from the arcades to suck quarters and instead what with quick saving you generally had a situation where if you died you couldn't progress, but you weren't set back a big amount, you just tried the challenge again.

There was just a lot of bad design in it, and what I'd categorize as very hostile design. The game felt hostile towards its players, and attitude its GMs seemed to share.

I've had times where I've thought of going back and replaying some old MMOs for nostalgia, but EQ has never been one of them. Once I left it (for DAoC) I never went back.
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I just cooked Kraft mac n cheese(in the box) while meditating camping claimed 5 min spawns. :D

I don't disagree, it is a tedious nightmare by todays standards, but it was amazing when i was in college in the late 90's to early 2000's, absolutely nothing to compare it to. Just saying completely unfair to compare something to post-EQ(my only point). DAoC never kept me interested. Wasn't until WoW i made a change, then by cataclysm, realized MMORPGs were over. You're complaints are jaded by modern QoL additions, learned from by what EQ was, and no one knew better, and it was the norm for most games back then, no easy mode. Hence why WoW was so successful. I have zero interested in revisiting this. Even for nostalgia.
 
4saken said:
I just cooked Kraft mac n cheese(in the box) while meditating camping claimed 5 min spawns. :D

I don't disagree, it is a tedious nightmare by todays standards, but it was amazing when i was in college in the late 90's to early 2000's, absolutely nothing to compare it to. Just saying completely unfair to compare something to post-EQ(my only point). DAoC never kept me interested. Wasn't until WoW i made a change, then by cataclysm, realized MMORPGs were over. You're complaints are jaded by modern QoL additions, learned from by what EQ was, and no one knew better, and it was the norm for most games back then, no easy mode. Hence why WoW was so successful. I have zero interested in revisiting this. Even for nostalgia.
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I mean, I disliked it even back in the day. I played on and off because of friends and because I WANTED to like it, but I really disliked all the bullshit in EQ. Particularly as compared to contemporary SP games. Remember 2000 was the year of Deus Ex, Baldur's Gate 2, FF9, Chrono Cross, Diablo II, Thief II, etc. Some of these are games I still replay from time to time to this day. EQ got way too much of a pass on its bullshit because it was an MMO and being the first 3D MMO it really had nothing directly to be compared to. However I feel a comparison to single player (or normal multiplayer) games is perfectly apt, because we'd figured out what things were good and bad with experience, and then it went and ignored a ton of that shit and felt more like 80s game design in many ways but it got a pass from fans.

That aside, even if you want to say "Eh it is only a tedious nightmare by today's standards..." well guess what? I live in today, so those are the standards I'll apply to replaying anything. If it sucks, it sucks I can play games that don't.

I can appreciate differences in design, and there are some designs that used to be popular that went away that I still like and get happy when they come back (Tempest Rising is a great RTS for example). However, there are other ideas that were just bad and shouldn't have been done. EQ had way too many of those, and plenty of them were things we KNEW were bad by 2000. One of my particular bugbears with it, or really almost any game, was I remember one of the devs or designers or someone from 343 who kept appealing to "realism" as the reason why they had to have X, Y, or Z stupidass thing in the game (like food and water). Like man, when I have to fight a dragon on the way to my car I'll listen to you about what it "realistic" until then, shut up. Games are meant to be fun, not realistic.
 
I’ve been playing in P99 and Quarm emulation servers for a few years now, and easily have a thousand + hours in original EQ starting at launch. I never got to try THR before the lawsuit with DBG, so this Legends experience looks pretty fun. The main devs from P99 and Quarm are developing on Legends so I bet it’s going to be great. With Monsters and Memories coming out on a similar timeline though, it’s going to be hard to decide where to invest the time and money, as that game has been fun in the beta so far too and is basically an EQ “clone”.
 
So someone mentioned that EQ was still running, which is true which made me say "Ok what the fuck is this? Just an 'EQ Classic' thing?" and do some research in to it.

It appears is designed to try to deal with some of my complaints: The crap class balance, solo issues, etc. It apparently is designed such that you will have one primary and two secondary classes, plus some kind of gear upgrade thing, so you can be really powerful. It appears their goal is to make a solo-able version of EQ, including high end content.

Soooo.... Ya. Interesting. Still not really sure why, but it does appear that it is more than just "Let's redo EQ again!" like WoW did with WoW Classic.

As an aside with WoW Classic, they keep iterating through the expansions. Does that mean some day they are going to have to do WoW Classic Classic and restart again? :D
 
They just had a lawsuit against "The Heros Journey" emulation server that this product is attempting to take back the fanbase from.

The Heros Journey allowed progression per character (like your own personal progression server), it allowed you to triple class your character, and made many things available QoL wise to remove the tedium.

The hero's journey apparently (if court docs are correct) made millions of dollars from the subscribers on this emulated server by donations or whatever. Which is why they got sued and shutdown. This is the "official" remake of this emulated server to try to bring that money back to their company. Good luck. You've pissed off all those players who liked this server to begin with.

Maybe if they hired those who made the Hero's Journey then maybe that would work out.
 
Scoobydo2 said:
They just had a lawsuit against "The Heros Journey" emulation server that this product is attempting to take back the fanbase from.

The Heros Journey allowed progression per character (like your own personal progression server), it allowed you to triple class your character, and made many things available QoL wise to remove the tedium.

The hero's journey apparently (if court docs are correct) made millions of dollars from the subscribers on this emulated server by donations or whatever. Which is why they got sued and shutdown. This is the "official" remake of this emulated server to try to bring that money back to their company. Good luck. You've pissed off all those players who liked this server to begin with.

Maybe if they hired those who made the Hero's Journey then maybe that would work out.
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A poor facsimile of what THJ had, led by the head of one of THJ's rival Emu Servers (Project Quarm). Nothing shady happening there.... Identity politics aside, that person seems to be generally terrible. Will not give money to this. THJ guys making their own game, Hollowed Oath. I enjoyed my time on THJ, got to revisit a lot of my nostaligic momets and solo stuff I never even got to see in Live. Was hopinng they would have made it past where they did so i could see stuff I never saw, since i quit right after GoD release. I might check out Holllowed Oath, but with the way things went down, kinda soured on EQ. Plus lots of games inn my backlog to catch up on.
 
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Scoobydo2 said:
The hero's journey apparently (if court docs are correct) made millions of dollars from the subscribers on this emulated server by donations or whatever. Which is why they got sued and shutdown. This is the "official" remake of this emulated server to try to bring that money back to their company. Good luck. You've pissed off all those players who liked this server to begin with.
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I mean, while it is kinda a shitty thing to do (and Daybreak is kinda a shitty publisher so not a surprise) the making money thing was asking for it. That's when companies tend to go after you. If you mod their stuff, many are at least ok with it, if not supporting. However if you start to monetize that, they get annoyed. That happened with Cyberpunk 2077, there was a VR mod that the guy locked behind a paywall, CDPR said "Your mod is great, and we are glad you are doing it, but if you wanna mod our game particularly using our mod toolkit, you need to allow people to get it for free." Guy said no, they shut him down.

Some of it can be greed, I have no doubt that was some of it in this case, Daybreak is always looking for how to monetize shit since they milk old IPs forever. However some of it can be protecting IP and just general fair play: Like you can use our stuff for fun, but you can't use it to make yourself money, if you want to use it to make money you need to license it. You see that in all kinds of media and with other software too. Two examples I can think of:
  1. We license Solidworks at the university I work for. It isn't free but is a VERY favorable price they offer. However, the restriction is you can't do funded research with it. It can be used for instruction or for fundamental research, but if a company is funding you to do research, you need a full priced license (we have a few of those for just such situations). Dassault doesn't want companies profiting from their stuff for cheap by using this as a loophole.
  2. Reaper has two licenses a very cheap one, and a still pretty cheap one but more expensive. The very cheap one gets you the full version of the software, but it is for non-commercial use only. Do whatever you want with it, but you can't make money. The higher priced one allows for unlimited use including commercial. Basically, the dev would like you to pay closer to what you'd pay for another DAW if you want to make money with it.
So like... I'm not defending Daybreak here... but I get it. Any time you want to do something with someone else's IP without a license, you really shouldn't charge anything for it.
 
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