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GrapheneOS refuses to comply with new age verification laws for operating systems — group says it will never require personal information

MrGuvernment said:
https://cybernews.com/privacy/systemd-forked-over-age-verification-quarrel/
Click to expand...
So much hate over literally nothing. Sadly very typical of parts of the open source community.

It's an optional field in systemd. OPTIONAL. OMGZ THE SKY IS FALLING!

None of those people will keep the forks going. Same with any distro that is forked. They'll all have their 2 minutes of rah rah rah we don't have an optional field, then realize what it takes to maintain that stuff and walk away.

As Mazzspeed said you can already store information like address and no one screamed about that. Most of these people screaming bloody murder have most likely given their birthdate away to Steam or some other service. It's such fake rage.

As for GrapheneOS. Good on them for standing their ground, but as Google adds age verification to to Android, it's only going to make GrapheneOS even more niche because you'll need the age verification if you use any of the Google stuff.
 
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Axman said:
This line of thinking is why we have to take our shoes off to get on a plane.
Click to expand...
I've never had to take my shoes off to get on a plane, not all of us live in the USA. If you wanted to make a meaningful difference regarding online privacy, you should have done it about 10 - 15 years ago. As stated, most carry a perfectly optimized tracking device with all their personal information including where they've been via Google/Apple Maps as well as their DOB and biometrics, including their credit cards allowing for the tracking of their every purchase, every single day - And people are worried about providing an age when creating a local account on your device that at this stage will not be reported as a specific figure to anyone?!

You're all too late.

1_rick said:
When California demands government ID, how many microseconds do you think the systemd people will pretend to consider rejecting the idea before adding support for it?
Click to expand...

Well if the law states they have to, provisions have to be made. Distro maintainers can swap to other init systems or they can fork systemd - Blame here doesn't lie with the developers supported by large corporations just doing their job.

However, this is all speculation and hearsay at this point.
 
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Life comes at you fast (apologies if this was already posted, I'm not following this thread closely)

https://www.androidauthority.com/apple-ios-age-checks-uk-3651999/
Not a fan of YouTube's age checks? Now some smartphones are demanding you prove your age
Device-level age checks are here, and Apple is leading the way.

As Ars Technica reports, Apple has begun rolling out a new age verification system tied to iOS in the UK. After installing the latest update, iPhone owners there may be asked to confirm they’re over 18 to access certain services. Failure to do so prevents the user from downloading certain adult-rated apps on the App Store, but it doesn’t end there. You could also reportedly face limits on web browsing, along with stricter “communication safety” checks in Messages and FaceTime that are designed to detect nude images and videos. Apple’s support pages suggest that failing to verify your age may restrict access to certain services or features altogether, though the company hasn’t specified which are affected.

To confirm your age, Apple offers several options, including checking a credit card on file, scanning a government ID like a passport or driver’s license, or using signals like how long your account has been active.
Click to expand...
Demands for government ID didn't take long.

Apple hasn’t specified exactly how far these restrictions extend, but the company wasn’t compelled to introduce age checks on iOS under UK law.
Click to expand...
 
1_rick said:
Demands for government ID didn't take long.
Click to expand...

There were no demands. This is something Apple have introduced all on their lonesome, such strict policies at OS level aren't required under UK law:

Apple has begun rolling out a new age verification system tied to iOS in the UK.
Click to expand...

Apple hasn’t specified exactly how far these restrictions extend, but the company wasn’t compelled to introduce age checks on iOS under UK law.
Click to expand...
 
Axman said:
https://github.com/BryanLunduke/DoesItAgeVerify

Now that Arch and systemd have indicated that they will add age verification, I'm hoping Artix makes a statement soon. Although I could see forks for the other distros.
Click to expand...
Starting to rethink my use of CachyOS. Hopefully, CachyOS will patch it out.

View: https://youtu.be/wR-zJKdAkOc?si=2zClTSGQoLVPHjwZ
MrGuvernment said:
https://cybernews.com/privacy/systemd-forked-over-age-verification-quarrel/
Click to expand...
Took them long enough.
Axman said:
Well that was fast...
Click to expand...
About .5 seconds too slow for me.
Mazzspeed said:
You're all too late.
Click to expand...
We're just getting started.
Mazzspeed said:
Some here seriously need to crack a beer and chill.
Click to expand...
To quote Steve Jobs, we're going thermonuclear war.
 
Mazzspeed said:
I've never had to take my shoes off to get on a plane, not all of us live in the USA. If you wanted to make a meaningful difference regarding online privacy, you should have done it about 10 - 15 years ago. As stated, most carry a perfectly optimized tracking device with all their personal information including where they've been via Google/Apple Maps as well as their DOB and biometrics, including their credit cards allowing for the tracking of their every purchase, every single day - And people are worried about providing an age when creating a local account on your device that at this stage will not be reported as a specific figure to anyone?!

You're all too late.



Well if the law states they have to, provisions have to be made. Distro maintainers can swap to other init systems or they can fork systemd - Blame here doesn't lie with the developers supported by large corporations just doing their job.

However, this is all speculation and hearsay at this point.
Click to expand...
You keep repeating this and it's bullshit. If government and corps didn't need the info there wouldn't be a law for it.

And despite having it explained to you you have no clue how government works. It starts small and always "for the kids". Then it grows and grows through additions to the same law passed in some other bill that has nothing to do with the same thing. Very quickly it's not just age; it's everything and it's required to prove it.

Don't believe me, then look at the Patriot Act. One of the worst pieces of legislation to ever be brought up for a vote. It's used daily by the government to break laws and defy the Constitution and it's continually expanded. I'm just not stupid enough to think these new age verification laws are any different.
 
Mazzspeed said:
Furthermore, based on what I've been reading, neckbeards sending death threats to systemd devs tasked with the implementation of (not yet ) mandated functionality is something that is definitely not in any way acceptable.
Click to expand...

I completely agree here. It is way out of line.

Mazzspeed said:
No, I never claimed entering one's age (an arbitrary figure that in no way invades privacy) upon account creation under the OS of one's choosing was in any way optional based on the proposed changes. I stated that the adduser command under Linux asks for your address, which no one ever complained about to the point of threatening Linux devs, and that adding your address in the fields provided is optional.
Click to expand...

I've highlighted the operational word here. Optional. We are talking about age verification laws. If passed, these laws will not be optional. I completely agree that having an age field in systemd at this point is nothing to be upset about. It's what happens when these laws pass. When this is no longer optional we have a problem. Adding it is the first step to it no longer being optional and that is why people are upset.

Mazzspeed said:
I've never had to take my shoes off to get on a plane, not all of us live in the USA. If you wanted to make a meaningful difference regarding online privacy, you should have done it about 10 - 15 years ago. As stated, most carry a perfectly optimized tracking device with all their personal information including where they've been via Google/Apple Maps as well as their DOB and biometrics, including their credit cards allowing for the tracking of their every purchase, every single day - And people are worried about providing an age when creating a local account on your device that at this stage will not be reported as a specific figure to anyone?!

You're all too late.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry but this is such a dumb take. On one hand, you are 100% correct, privacy any more is a joke. On the other hand, in no way am I going to roll over and take the crap they are throwing at us. It's also kind of ironic talking about cell phone tracking in a thread about GrapheneOS, a cell phone operating system designed exactly for the purpose of privacy. Funnily enough I ordered a Pixel 8a last weekend to try out GrapheneOS and see if I can move over to it full time. I'm happy to see that they took the stance they did.

Vermillion said:
Age verification is coming and while I think it's dumb I'm also not in an uproar about it if it's part of the OS.

The system doesn't have to give away your birth date. For example the systemd guys just need to store that date and use an API to simply pass a yes or no to an age question.

Is the user under the age of 13? Yes or No.

Is the user under the age of 18? Yes or No.

Privacy respecting age verification controlled by the OS. I can work with that.

What I don't like is the age verification implemented now in stuff like Roblox where they use facial recognition. That is a huge privacy invasion.
Click to expand...

Let's do a thought experiment. I haven't had a Facebook account in over a decade so I could be wrong here, but I'm guessing currently they ask for your age and you can lie about it. At that point Facebook doesn't really know your age.

Now lets say the laws pass. The California bill has age brackets: under 13, 13 to under 16, 16 to under 18, 18+. Say I'm 15 so the OS reports I'm in the 13 to under 16 bracket. I use Facebook every day and it performs this check every day. Suddenly I turn 16 and it performs this check. Whoops, my age bracket just changed. Now they know my exact birthday. Do you really think Facebook isn't going to log this? I guess it's a question of how many other apps and websites are going to track this as well.

Here's another thought experiment. You setup a device for your child and they are under 13. They cannot access all of these naughty sites. Great. Here comes Mr bad man and makes a chat website that requires you to be under 13 to access or, or whatever their age preference might be. Mommy and daddy can't access it because they are too old. Your harmless age bracket just singled out your child. They cant use any of these other sites because they are complying with these age laws so they go looking for sites they can visit.

At best these laws do absolutely nothing. At worst they are painting a bigger target on the backs of the children who they are supposed to protect. To quote Louis Rossmann "We have a government of pedophiles" so excuse me for being skeptical when the governments want to setup laws to "protect the children".

Personally I think these laws are designed to fail so that we can transition into "sorry these laws didn't work, please upload your ID to use a computer". I don't know when we'll get there but I can absolutely see it coming, as can anyone else who is upset about this.
 
Cypher- said:
Personally I think these laws are designed to fail so that we can transition into "sorry these laws didn't work, please upload your ID to use a computer". I don't know when we'll get there but I can absolutely see it coming, as can anyone else who is upset about this.
Click to expand...

This is exactly where it will go. Compare the UK social media bans, VPN usage skyrocketed, their next idea, ban VPNs.....

Lay the foundation as you said, try to start big, get shot down, then retract as if they care, add in a little, then add more every time to "think of the children" all while the actual companies that are abusing the children (Meta et cetera) no longer have ANY liability and are free to continue manipulating their users.
 
Cypher- said:
I completely agree here. It is way out of line.



I've highlighted the operational word here. Optional. We are talking about age verification laws. If passed, these laws will not be optional. I completely agree that having an age field in systemd at this point is nothing to be upset about. It's what happens when these laws pass. When this is no longer optional we have a problem. Adding it is the first step to it no longer being optional and that is why people are upset.



I'm sorry but this is such a dumb take. On one hand, you are 100% correct, privacy any more is a joke. On the other hand, in no way am I going to roll over and take the crap they are throwing at us. It's also kind of ironic talking about cell phone tracking in a thread about GrapheneOS, a cell phone operating system designed exactly for the purpose of privacy. Funnily enough I ordered a Pixel 8a last weekend to try out GrapheneOS and see if I can move over to it full time. I'm happy to see that they took the stance they did.



Let's do a thought experiment. I haven't had a Facebook account in over a decade so I could be wrong here, but I'm guessing currently they ask for your age and you can lie about it. At that point Facebook doesn't really know your age.

Now lets say the laws pass. The California bill has age brackets: under 13, 13 to under 16, 16 to under 18, 18+. Say I'm 15 so the OS reports I'm in the 13 to under 16 bracket. I use Facebook every day and it performs this check every day. Suddenly I turn 16 and it performs this check. Whoops, my age bracket just changed. Now they know my exact birthday. Do you really think Facebook isn't going to log this? I guess it's a question of how many other apps and websites are going to track this as well.

Here's another thought experiment. You setup a device for your child and they are under 13. They cannot access all of these naughty sites. Great. Here comes Mr bad man and makes a chat website that requires you to be under 13 to access or, or whatever their age preference might be. Mommy and daddy can't access it because they are too old. Your harmless age bracket just singled out your child. They cant use any of these other sites because they are complying with these age laws so they go looking for sites they can visit.

At best these laws do absolutely nothing. At worst they are painting a bigger target on the backs of the children who they are supposed to protect. To quote Louis Rossmann "We have a government of pedophiles" so excuse me for being skeptical when the governments want to setup laws to "protect the children".

Personally I think these laws are designed to fail so that we can transition into "sorry these laws didn't work, please upload your ID to use a computer". I don't know when we'll get there but I can absolutely see it coming, as can anyone else who is upset about this.
Click to expand...
People have been freely giving their birth date to various services for years. The government doesn't need us to give that up. They already have it.

Do you own a house in the US? Your birth date is already out there as is your address. Honestly, most of that data is already out there after all the data leaks from insurance companies. Even my kids birthdays (and their SSNs) are already out there on the Internet in the hands of data aggregators thanks to data breaches.

Nobu said:
"Just give up nerd! It's too late, you've already lost!"
It's never too late, only too little. If it's not enough, we need to do more, not less.
Click to expand...
Oh we've already lost. Go read this article. It's downright frightening how little privacy we actually have on the Internet.

https://jscrambler.com/blog/beyond-analytics-tiktok-meta-ad-pixels

The key at this point is understanding that age verification is coming and we can't stop it no matter how much we want to. It's going to be rammed down our throats no matter what. However, we can guide it to make sure it's secure and privacy respecting.
 
Vermillion said:
People have been freely giving their birth date to various services for years. The government doesn't need us to give that up. They already have it.

Do you own a house in the US? Your birth date is already out there as is your address. Honestly, most of that data is already out there after all the data leaks from insurance companies. Even my kids birthdays (and their SSNs) are already out there on the Internet in the hands of data aggregators thanks to data breaches.


Oh we've already lost. Go read this article. It's downright frightening how little privacy we actually have on the Internet.

https://jscrambler.com/blog/beyond-analytics-tiktok-meta-ad-pixels

The key at this point is understanding that age verification is coming and we can't stop it no matter how much we want to. It's going to be rammed down our throats no matter what. However, we can guide it to make sure it's secure and privacy respecting.
Click to expand...
Trust me, we can stop it. The means may not be legal, but they are there.
 
The argument that Apple implemented age verification in the UK by choice is strange given EU requirements are already in the legislative pipeline and the UK has been mandating certain age verifications via its Online Safety Act since 2023. Also, I'm not sure what people mean when they write, "when these laws pass" since they're already here. California's law passed but just doesn't go into effect until January next year. There are also at least 23 other states with age verification laws on the books with several in effect.
 
mope54 said:
The argument that Apple implemented age verification in the UK by choice is strange given EU requirements are already in the legislative pipeline and the UK has been mandating certain age verifications via its Online Safety Act since 2023. Also, I'm not sure what people mean when they write, "when these laws pass" since they're already here. California's law passed but just doesn't go into effect until January next year. There are also at least 23 other states with age verification laws on the books with several in effect.
Click to expand...
I'm going to jail for using some shady vpn hosted in some third world country before I give porn sites my id or jailbreaking my phone ECT because what I do online is my business and I for one don't care what the government or a company says I will always try to get around it even if it's illegal.
 
Mazzspeed said:
I've never had to take my shoes off to get on a plane, not all of us live in the USA.
Click to expand...

Tu quoque. That's the fallacy fallacy.

What I said was that line of thinking is why we have to deal with unreasonable bureaucracy and invasive government.

Also I'm a dual citizen. This is like saying "My mango tamarind boot tastes so much better than your apple pie spice boot," but it's still boot-licking.
 
SmokeRngs said:
You keep repeating this and it's bullshit. If government and corps didn't need the info there wouldn't be a law for it.

And despite having it explained to you you have no clue how government works. It starts small and always "for the kids". Then it grows and grows through additions to the same law passed in some other bill that has nothing to do with the same thing. Very quickly it's not just age; it's everything and it's required to prove it.

Don't believe me, then look at the Patriot Act. One of the worst pieces of legislation to ever be brought up for a vote. It's used daily by the government to break laws and defy the Constitution and it's continually expanded. I'm just not stupid enough to think these new age verification laws are any different.
Click to expand...
Right now, as it stands at the present, it's nothing more than a non optional numeric field entered upon account creation that will allow apps and sites to read an 'age group' (not a specific figure) and adapt accordingly - That's all there is to it, and trying to predict what may pass is basically futile.

I mean, I look at my account under KDE Plasma right now, and it's got my email address that I put there - I guess I should do a John Rambo, go live in a cave like a wild man because "they're out to get me". :rolleyes:

Cypher- said:
I'm sorry but this is such a dumb take. On one hand, you are 100% correct, privacy any more is a joke. On the other hand, in no way am I going to roll over and take the crap they are throwing at us. It's also kind of ironic talking about cell phone tracking in a thread about GrapheneOS, a cell phone operating system designed exactly for the purpose of privacy. Funnily enough I ordered a Pixel 8a last weekend to try out GrapheneOS and see if I can move over to it full time. I'm happy to see that they took the stance they did.
Click to expand...
Too late, everything you fear will happen has already happened. The dumb take is refusing to believe it has, and believing that you've got any leverage over such decisions whatsoever. GrapheneOS or not, you leave a trail of traceable metadata everywhere you go.

Cypher- said:
Now lets say the laws pass. The California bill has age brackets: under 13, 13 to under 16, 16 to under 18, 18+. Say I'm 15 so the OS reports I'm in the 13 to under 16 bracket. I use Facebook every day and it performs this check every day. Suddenly I turn 16 and it performs this check. Whoops, my age bracket just changed. Now they know my exact birthday. Do you really think Facebook isn't going to log this? I guess it's a question of how many other apps and websites are going to track this as well.
Click to expand...
Here's a thought experiment: Based on your online metadata, I can assure you already know your birthdate. Furthermore, you can enter anything you want in that field, you can state you're 100yo and it'll be accepted, furthermore you can enter it on any of the other 364 days of the year that isn't your birthday.

Cypher- said:
Here's another thought experiment. You setup a device for your child and they are under 13. They cannot access all of these naughty sites. Great. Here comes Mr bad man and makes a chat website that requires you to be under 13 to access or, or whatever their age preference might be. Mommy and daddy can't access it because they are too old. Your harmless age bracket just singled out your child. They cant use any of these other sites because they are complying with these age laws so they go looking for sites they can visit.
Click to expand...
So someone reports it and Mr bad man can go pound sand. Sure, the system isn't infallible and it's gonna be a game of whack a mole, but it's better than absolutely nothing and vastly easier to implement than current parental controls under most operating systems. It's no replacement for parental supervision, but it's a tool parents can use to keep their children safe combined with parental supervision.

I've said it before, I'm a good parent and a techie, and when my Daughter fell down a rabbit hole on the internet I was right onto it - But Gawd damn it was a struggle, there's no way an average non techie parent could have worked out what I implemented.

Anyway, I've said what I wanna say, bicker amongst yourselves while believing that you can make a difference, try not to threaten devs that are only doing their jobs. The fact that CachyOS moderators have to close threads on their forums due to threats from members is totally unacceptable - People should not be threatening devs and moderators over an age field OS developers are obliged to implement.
 
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tunatime said:
I'm going to jail for using some shady vpn hosted in some third world country before I give porn sites my id
Click to expand...
that one of the thing apple system provide to its customer, nothing to give ID wise to the porn site (if they use the OS api), it will be rare in some market for an iPhone to not be made with an apple account that has an credit card (and only adult can have them in many market, so auto done, not even a prompt), so many would never even know that it is going on.
 
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Mazzspeed said:
Right now, as it stands at the present, it's nothing more than a numeric field entered upon account creation that will allow apps and sites to read an 'age group' (not a specific figure) and adapt accordingly - That's all there is to it, and trying to predict what may pass is basically futile.
Click to expand...
You keep making this claim but it's false. Twenty-five US states already require government IDs for certain online activities. If you aren't aware, that's half of the US states. California does not require government IDs and has, instead, implemented our version of a self-stated age verification system similar to the one you continue to wrongly assert is the norm. In reality, California is one of the few US states with relatively strong privacy rights compared to other states. Fewer than five US states follow that model. Since online activity falls under interstate commerce, and since there are no numerous discrepancies between states' laws regarding age verification requirements, it's a matter of time before the Supreme Court will have to step in and resolve those conflicts.

It may not matter to you, but in so far as the United States should implement a federal system of online age verification, it should come from Congress not the Courts, which is what will happen once SCOTUS grants certiorari to resolve these discrepancies. Whether you believe parents (I have a 7- and 9-year-old if it's relevant; I'm also a professor of law and criminology at a large research public institution in California if that's relevant, too) should have expanded tools to monitor and restrict our children's online behavior is immaterial to the fact of how such tools should be implemented. For better or for worse, the US has a history of allowing parents to make these choices for ourselves--even including not making them.

Internationally, the Online Safety Act, which contains the UK's age-verification clause, was passed in 2023 and went into effect in July 2025. Sites and apps must use one of several methods to assure someone's age, such as taking their banking information, matching a photo with an ID, or scanning their face. That's hardly innocuous information in the hands of companies and websites that have demonstrated carelessness in regard to data protection and user privacy at best.

France and Italy have competing models of how age verification must be done (and by whom) roughly analogous to the split among the US states. As more EU member nations pass and implement their laws it stands to reason they will all take various paths depending on how their respective legislations deem fit. Eventually, the EU will have to resolve those conflicts in the same way the US states will eventually. Aside from the fact that these laws are here and now and not in some distant future as you continue to incorrectly claim, the fact of the matter is these conflicts and conclusions will need to be addressed so hand-waving them aside on the basis of the cat's out of the bag while simultaneously arguing they aren't solidified yet seems absurd. Interestingly, these are diametrical opposite positions so maybe you believe in Schrödinger's Age Verification Laws or you're being disingenuous.
 
SmokeRngs said:
You keep repeating this and it's bullshit. If government and corps didn't need the info there wouldn't be a law for it.
Click to expand...
More specifically, Meta lobbied for these laws. Not sure about Brazil but Meta certainly spent millions for this in USA. Meta's main business is collecting user data.
Cypher- said:
I'm sorry but this is such a dumb take. On one hand, you are 100% correct, privacy any more is a joke. On the other hand, in no way am I going to roll over and take the crap they are throwing at us. It's also kind of ironic talking about cell phone tracking in a thread about GrapheneOS, a cell phone operating system designed exactly for the purpose of privacy. Funnily enough I ordered a Pixel 8a last weekend to try out GrapheneOS and see if I can move over to it full time. I'm happy to see that they took the stance they did.
Click to expand...
Privacy is a joke if you use Windows, MacOS, iOS, and 99% of Android phones. But there are a growing number of people who don't use these OS's and this is why I feel these age verification laws are made for. Because you know, underage children are going to install Linux and search for porn. Good luck tracking people who use GrapheneOS and 99.99% of Linux distros. Add a VPN and avoid the use of Google and suddenly you're the "Dark User". If the Dark Web is a web site that can't be found using Google search, then a Dark User is someone that can't be tracked by Google. It's not all that hard to do and many people can easily get away with it. If France isn't happy with GrapheneOS then you know it works. You can avoid being tracked online.
grapheneos france.jpeg
Vermillion said:
Oh we've already lost. Go read this article. It's downright frightening how little privacy we actually have on the Internet.

https://jscrambler.com/blog/beyond-analytics-tiktok-meta-ad-pixels
Click to expand...
Sounds like an Apple user problem. That and watching ads in videos they watch.
The key at this point is understanding that age verification is coming and we can't stop it no matter how much we want to. It's going to be rammed down our throats no matter what. However, we can guide it to make sure it's secure and privacy respecting.
Click to expand...
Age verification will be fought off successfully. Slackware already said they won't do age verification either. Either these laws will be reinforced and Slackware and GrapheneOS will be taken to court, or they will have Zero enforcement. There will be tools to remove any age verification implemented into Linux distros. Any software that requires it will be avoided or even forked. Windows will get patched to have it removed as well. I see a number of Linux distros that could collapse over night from this. You're not going to convince Linux users who's main reason for using Linux is for privacy to accept age verification. You have a better chance getting the Epstein files.
Mazzspeed said:
Well that Bulls half way to Neptune right now, and you still haven't left Earth.
Click to expand...
Then why make a law for it? Apple users are on Neptune while us Linux/Android users are hidden in plain sight.
 
DukenukemX said:
Then why make a law for it? Apple users are on Neptune while us Linux/Android users are hidden in plain sight.
Click to expand...
Because your big US tech (Meta) needs to push the onus regarding age back onto the user as opposed to Meta, so that Meta doesn't get sued to the tune of billions for posting content not suitable for minors, and so that Meta doesn't have to bother with issues regarding ID security - Gotta keep ugly little Zuck in the lifestyle he's accustomed. By entering your age at OS level, you're basically taking the onus regarding age off big US tech entirely.

If you want to blame anyone: Blame your Government, blame Meta - Make sure your anger is directed at the source as opposed to those just doing their jobs trying to keep distro's in line with legislation. It's not rocket science.

At the end of the day, no age at local account creation = No access to certain sites. People will jump from GrapheneOS once they realize they can no longer access their precious Instagram.

mope54 said:
You keep making this claim but it's false. Twenty-five US states already require government IDs for certain online activities.
Click to expand...

Bearing in mind that we're talking about an arbitrary figure entered at OS local account creation, we're not talking about legislation forcing sites posting sensitive content to require verification of age at site level using Government issued ID and the like.

mope54 said:
You keep making this claim but it's false. Twenty-five US states already require government IDs for certain online activities.
Click to expand...

I never stated anything was the norm when it comes to entering an age at OS local account creation.
 
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Mazzspeed said:
Because your big US tech (Meta) needs to push the onus regarding age back onto the user as opposed to Meta, so that Meta doesn't get sued to the tune of billions for posting content not suitable for minors, and so that Meta doesn't have to bother with issues regarding ID security - Gotta keep ugly little Zuck in the lifestyle he's accustomed. By entering your age at OS level, you're basically taking the onus regarding age off big US tech entirely.
Click to expand...
Then let websites deal with age verification individually. I assume Facebook asks for your age and if that didn't work then why would optional age verification work at the OS level?
If you want to blame anyone: Blame your Government, blame Meta - Make sure your anger is directed at the source as opposed to those just doing their jobs trying to keep distro's in line with legislation. It's not rocket science.
Click to expand...
Like all problems in life, I blame it on lobbying. Why you think US healthcare is shit and we're going to war with Iran? It's all lobbying money. Lobbying should be made illegal.
At the end of the day, no age at local account creation = No access to certain sites. People will jump from GrapheneOS once they realize they can no longer access their precious Instagram.
Click to expand...
We've been down this road before. There's always Instagram Revanced.
disable ad block.jpg
 
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like this
DukenukemX said:
Privacy is a joke if you use Windows, MacOS, iOS, and 99% of Android phones
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that a bad understanding of how tracking work (and iOS is one of the best at fighting it outthere)
DukenukemX said:
Meta's main business is collecting user data.
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Meta users give their birthday (and people tell them on the platform happybirthday that day), meta is lobbying to have the weakest laws possible instead of the australian version (where they ban it for teens)

DukenukemX said:
Lobbying should be made illegal.
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How would people make it know to the goverment if they do not like the US intervention in Iran if it is illegal to say it in public ? Lobbying is the act of attempting to influence the decisions, policies, or activities of government officials and legislators, making lobbying illegal is making democracy illegal.
 
LukeTbk said:
that a bad understanding of how tracking work (and iOS is one of the best at fighting it outthere)
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Is that why Apple was one of the first to implement age verification? What's sad is that some Linux distros are thinking of using Apple's age verification system. The good news is that some iPhone users are threatening to deflect to Android over this.
"In a similar fashion to Discord, Apple's iOS will check your account's 'age', but if under 18, it will default to requesting credit card information, a facial ID scan, or a government ID, such as a driver's license."
How would people make it know to the goverment if they do not like the US intervention in Iran if it is illegal to say it in public ?
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You could just do a poll? Cast a vote? I haven't met a single person who wanted to die for Israel.
Lobbying is the act of attempting to influence the decisions, policies, or activities of government officials and legislators, making lobbying illegal is making democracy illegal.
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Lobbying is for those with money and isn't a democracy.
 
DukenukemX said:
Is that why Apple was one of the first to implement age verification?
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and, if it is an unique token per demander, does it impact tracking much ? just check and yes (we can count on apple for that), it is an unique per-provider (and non correlatable) tokens, that seem by far the best option / technical way to do it if you are to do it.

DukenukemX said:
You could just do a poll? Cast a vote? I haven't met a single person who wanted to die for Israel.
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a poll and answering them is a form of lobbying.

DukenukemX said:
Lobbying is for those with money and isn't a democracy.
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lobbying mean trying to influence the goverment.
 
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LukeTbk said:
and, if it is an unique token per demander, does it impact tracking much ? just check and yes (we can count on apple for that), it is an unique per-provider (and non correlatable) tokens, that seem by far the best option / technical way to do it if you are to do it.


a poll and answering them is a form of lobbying.


lobbying mean trying to influence the goverment.
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The text book definition is not what is happening in practice. A person writing a letter to their representative is technically lobbying but a single corporation can throw 10's or 100's of millions of dollars at it. The public can't compete with that. Lobbying right now is massively weighted in favour of large corporations.
 
Ididar said:
The text book definition is not what is happening in practice. A person writing a letter to their representative is technically lobbying but a single corporation can throw 10's or 100's of millions of dollars at it. The public can't compete with that. Lobbying right now is massively weighted in favour of large corporations.
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We are here in a bit that show that it is not always that simple, giant lobby of parents that want to reduce algorithm capture of children pushing those type of laws facing giant lobby of big tech that make money from capturing people attentions. Home owners as a lobby and their ability to block construction is giant, teachers, nurse and others unions can be very powerful lobby that rise solid money, retiree as a group of voters and trying to make social security not go bankrupt is a giant lobby hard to go against.

large corporations lobbying are often against competing large corporations interests.
 
DukenukemX said:
meta lobby age verfication.png
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you think this is how meta product end up banned for kids and young teenagers in Australia ?

or:
https://abcnews.com/GMA/Family/meta-hit-375-million-verdict-new-mexico-child/story?id=131393490
https://apnews.com/article/social-m...agram-trials-aa1d936fca51c67478db7bc5b08d1c45
For years, parents, teenagers, pediatricians, educators and whistleblowers have pushed the idea that social media is detrimental to young people’s mental health and can lead to addiction, eating disorders, sexual exploitation and suicide.
In Los Angeles on Wednesday, a jury found both Meta and YouTube liable for harms to children using their services

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cqj9kgxqjwjo

10 years of anti big tech talk, Jonathan Haidt has been really mainstream those past few years, school banning phone became common, there is an actual movement of people that want big tech to ease on the algorithm aggressiveness to capture child attention and how much ads they are exposed too.

Of course, in face of that worldwide movement, facebook try to be the one that write the laws that will control the industry and they will try to past something similar to the tv/movie industry got, the MPAA self censorship, self control, parents that decide for themselve system they try to push, because that the best case scenario for them.

I am sure some big money is helping funds those anti big tech parents group has well, but it come from real worry has well:
https://www.ajc.com/opinion/2026/03...onger-laws-to-ensure-childrens-online-safety/
https://www.channel3000.com/news/sh...cle_4a1c83b5-f300-5536-b18f-dd8767e6ef87.html

DukenukemX said:
Sure it is. If you believe that then I got a war in Iran to sell you.
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Look who achieved to stop the high speed train between los angeles and san fransisco, do you think it was big corporation against non-big corporation going on ?

you had airlines, environmental group, farmers, house owners on one side, giant engenirering/consulting/trains maker, workers trade unions, other environmental group on the other side, revolving door between big consulting firm and politicians pushing the project, it is often like this battle of giant lobby.

Lot of giant corporation do not like high energy price and wars, some love it....
 
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LukeTbk said:
you think this is how meta product end up banned for kids and young teenagers in Australia ?

or:
https://abcnews.com/GMA/Family/meta-hit-375-million-verdict-new-mexico-child/story?id=131393490
https://apnews.com/article/social-m...agram-trials-aa1d936fca51c67478db7bc5b08d1c45
For years, parents, teenagers, pediatricians, educators and whistleblowers have pushed the idea that social media is detrimental to young people’s mental health and can lead to addiction, eating disorders, sexual exploitation and suicide.
In Los Angeles on Wednesday, a jury found both Meta and YouTube liable for harms to children using their services

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cqj9kgxqjwjo

10 years of anti big tech talk, Jonathan Haidt has been really mainstream those past few years, school banning phone became common, there is an actual movement of people that want big tech to ease on the algorithm aggressiveness to capture child attention and how much ads they are exposed too.
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Maybe the problem is social media itself and not the computer OS? We know what kids will do to circumvent these age restrictions anyway, so what's the point?
enters fake age.gif

Look who achieved to stop the high speed train between los angeles and san fransisco, do you think it was big corporation against non-big corporation going on ?

you had airlines, environmental group, farmers, house owners on one side, giant engenirering/consulting/trains maker, workers trade unions, other environmental group on the other side, revolving door between big consulting firm and politicians pushing the project, it is often like this battle of giant lobby.

Lot of giant corporation do not like high energy price and wars, some love it....
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Depends on which side you're on in the conflict. To answer your question, it was Trump's administration who cancelled the high speed train. Normally, the high speed train systems in America are killed off by oil and auto industry lobbying. Just like "right to repair" has been killed off by lobbying. As a car guy I would like to see more trains because most people shouldn't be driving cars.

View: https://youtu.be/IF8YNn4v-y4?t=814
 
DukenukemX said:
Then let websites deal with age verification individually. I assume Facebook asks for your age and if that didn't work then why would optional age verification work at the OS level?
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At this point, there's simply no way anything but a meme can explain the level of facepalm here.

Missing the point.png
 
DukenukemX said:
Maybe the problem is social media itself and not the computer OS? We know what kids will do to circumvent these age restrictions anyway, so what's the point?
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Mazzspeed said:
At this point, there's simply no way anything but a meme can explain the level of facepalm here.
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We know this is about user tracking.

What could possibly justify age verification?
 
Axman said:
We know this is about user tracking.

What could possibly justify age verification?
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So at this point in time they want to track an age bracket, not a specific figure, and you can literally make that figure anything you want - Bearing in mind in most cases big US tech already has your birthdate. They're already tracking your every movement, perhaps the intention is to get a generation that have only known the internet since birth and are literally addicted to it off the internet, making them a part of productive society.

As for my meme, perhaps go back and read my original post regarding onus and Meta getting sued to the tune of billions the user in question was responding to.
 
Mazzspeed said:
So at this point in time they want to track an age bracket, not a specific figure, and you can literally make that figure anything you want - Bearing in mind in most cases big US tech already has your birthdate. They're already tracking your every movement, perhaps the intention is to get a generation that have only known the internet since birth and are literally addicted to it off the internet, making them a part of productive society.

As for my meme, perhaps go back and read my original post regarding onus and Meta getting sued to the tune of billions the user in question was responding to.
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You keep repeating that everyone already has all the information out there on everyone. If that was true then they wouldn't need the fucking age verification in the first place. Your point is not only stupid, it's moot.

OS verification is also absurdly stupid. It assumes that one and only one person will ever at any time in the whole of time and space will ever use that device. Most people don't bother with multiple profiles on shared machines. It's just there and whoever uses it uses it as is.
 
SmokeRngs said:
You keep repeating that everyone already has all the information out there on everyone. If that was true then they wouldn't need the fucking age verification in the first place. Your point is not only stupid, it's moot.

OS verification is also absurdly stupid. It assumes that one and only one person will ever at any time in the whole of time and space will ever use that device. Most people don't bother with multiple profiles on shared machines. It's just there and whoever uses it uses it as is.
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While you are correct about how there is typically one account per system, you're not looking at the bigger picture. Typically there isn't just one device in a household anymore.

Take my household for an example. I have a 14 year old son, an 11 year old daughter, and an 8 year old son. I have a laptop. My wife has a laptop, My eldest son and my daughter both have laptops. All 3 of my kids have iPads. My eldest son also has a phone. My daughter may get a phone this summer as she turns 12 (The wife and I are still debating that one).

Now I filter and monitor my network like a hawk. My son's phone auto connects to the household VPN for monitoring when he drops from the WiFi. iPads all go through VPN when not on my WiFi as well.

My wife and I do the best we can with limiting screen time and not allowing social media (we allow zero Social media for our kids outside of very limited youtube for the 14 year old). However, I can't monitor my 8 year old when he plays Roblox every minute he plays. This is where a privacy respecting age verification could come in. I have a parent account for Roblox. All 3 of my kids are under me so I can limit what they can do. However, right now in order for them to chat I have to allow them to use facial recognition for age verification. I denied them that for awhile but it was causing grief because they couldn't play games they had been and they could no longer talk to friends. That facial recognition goes through a 3rd party and that 3rd party I can't trust even a little bit. We've already seen where 3rd party age verification companies get breached and are still retaining data they shouldn't be. This is easy to bypass for anybody. Hell our neighbors sophomore in High School got called a 20 year old by the Roblox facial recognition.

The better option would be for iOS/Android/Windows/Linux to let me show my ID and have it processed *ONLY* locally. That verifies me and then I get to set my kids age. That puts the onus on ME to put in the proper date. if I want my 14 year old to access 18 year old stuff I can do that and that's on me. That's how it should be. And only a yes or no answer is passed to the application requestion the verification. So yes the the application gets some sort of information about birth date but they can already get that data and if the parent is the decider of the age then that limits how useful that data may be because the data may not be accurate.

It is a slippery slope, but again if I validate that I'm my age and my youngest is 8 it means the application could put additional policies in place to help protect my 8 year old because I can't watch him every minute he's playing a game. I do my best but my best will never be enough is this technology driven world.

Plus doing something like that really does help protect the children for a change. That cliche is awful, and age verification won't eliminate grooming or CSAM, but it will make it harder for some people to be able to do those awful things. To me every little bit helps but it has to be done in a way that is privacy respecting and we can do it in a privacy respecting way. We have the technology.

Some people will point to the verdict against Meta and Youtube this week and social media. While I do believe the verdict was the correct one overall for how companies handle data from social media, it terms of this case it was wrong. The parents were being shitty parents by allowing their 9 year old daughter to have that much access to social media and not watching what she was doing. At some point the parents need to be held accountable too. We're holding parents accountable now for mass shootings (and rightfully so) so we should do the same here. Handing your kid an iPad does not absolve you from your duties as a parent.

Again this is a slippery slope but I think if it is is done the right way it would be good thing overall. The problem is doing it the right way is going to be ridiculously hard.
 
SmokeRngs said:
You keep repeating that everyone already has all the information out there on everyone. If that was true then they wouldn't need the fucking age verification in the first place. Your point is not only stupid, it's moot.
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People either aren't reading posts, or their cognitive bias is very selective:

Mazzspeed said:
Because your big US tech (Meta) needs to push the onus regarding age back onto the user as opposed to Meta, so that Meta doesn't get sued to the tune of billions for posting content not suitable for minors, and so that Meta doesn't have to bother with issues regarding ID security - Gotta keep ugly little Zuck in the lifestyle he's accustomed. By entering your age at OS level, you're basically taking the onus regarding age off big US tech entirely.
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Furthermore, as stated such an implementation at this point in time undeniably makes it far easier for non tech savvy parents to implement restrictions controlling what their Children can access online along with effective parenting, in a way that's as non intrusive as possible from the perspective of privacy.
 
1_rick said:
When California demands government ID, how many microseconds do you think the systemd people will pretend to consider rejecting the idea before adding support for it?
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As stupid as the law is. I mean do any of us just have an option to say no I shall not follow the law.

Honestly systemds addition of an optional filed is expected. As long as it remains optional. Then its up to people upset to not take it out on people complying with the law, and instead focus their anger on the people passing the laws. As an optional filed it should be up to distros do do anything with it or not. I haven't heard anyone suggest the field will be come mandatory and systemd will nuke your system or something if its not used.

I can't do anything about it I don't live in California. Did anyone really believe sysmted founded and still mainly funded by Red Hat (IBM) was going to stick their middle finger up. Stupid law sure, but if they pass companies like IBM aren't going to say na screw you. I mean its fair to pressure the bigs like Red Hat to fight, but ignoring laws isn't happening. Demanding purity tests from little evening/weekend warrior distros isn't changing anything. :)
 
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