Apple intros MacBook Neo: $599 with an iPhone chip

ChadD said:

You don't need to carry around a wall wort. I wouldn't suggest using one... but I'm pretty sure you could buy a charger for a neo at a dollar store if need be. lol
And yes I see your updated dell has usbc charging as well.

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Keep in mind that the Neo has only two USB ports and one of them is USB2.0 speeds. 26 years ago called and wants it's USB2.0 back. What that means is anyone wanting to use a Neo is going to have one that looks like this, with half the I/O missing so even more dongles.

(edit oh didn't read that still needs a 65w charger, usbc but still not just a phone charger)

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I don't think it needs 65W as much as it can take advantage of it. What this means is the Neo doesn't support fast charging, which means it'll take 3 to 4 hours to reach 100% charge. While the Dell I linked can do it in 2 hours with ExpressCharge. It's not like the Dell couldn't use a 20W charger, but at 20W it's going to take 3 to 4 hours. This is what happens when Apple uses a previous generation iPhone chip in a laptop as even older M1 chips can make use of a 65W charger, albeit at only 30W. As a reminder, the use of USB2.0 was also criticized when comparing these iPhones to Android phones.

That isn't the target audience common use scenario for Neo.
One would be far better moving up to the Air.

I have never been happy with the number of usb ports on a laptop. Though a dock is much nicer so you only plug in one when you get home. The usb 2 port is stupid though imo, and i usually carry a flag for apple lol.

DukenukemX said:

Keep in mind that the Neo has only two USB ports and one of them is USB2.0 speeds. 26 years ago called and wants it's USB2.0 back. What that means is anyone wanting to use a Neo is going to have one that looks like this, with half the I/O missing so even more dongles.
View attachment 790718

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I've honestly never seen my kids plug in more than a single usb drive into any of their computers. What are you connecting at your desk at school that you'd need 4 separate dongles for?

DukenukemX said:

I don't think it needs 65W as much as it can take advantage of it. What this means is the Neo doesn't support fast charging, which means it'll take 3 to 4 hours to reach 100% charge. While the Dell I linked can do it in 2 hours with ExpressCharge. It's not like the Dell couldn't use a 20W charger, but at 20W it's going to take 3 to 4 hours. This is what happens when Apple uses a previous generation iPhone chip in a laptop as even older M1 chips can make use of a 65W charger, albeit at only 30W. As a reminder, the use of USB2.0 was also criticized when comparing these iPhones to Android phones.

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The Neo only has a 36.5 watt-hour battery but yeah, it's going to take some time to charge on the 20 watt charger. But considering it stays at 4 watts of usage under sustained load currently, you can still run it full tilt and still charge on that 20 watt charger. Based on charging tests done with other Apple adapters, it can charge at a rate of 35 - 40 watts if you want to use a more powerful charger and charge twice as fast.

DukenukemX said:

I'm not sure how the 65w charger matters since you need one for the Neo? Anyway, Dell 14 Plus Laptop for $650.

1. 14", Non-Touch, 2.5K, IPS, WVA, Anti-Glare, 300 nits which makes this a bit higher in resolution than the Neo but is also 300 nits while the Neo is still 500 nits.
2. Aluminum housing
3. 16GB ram with 512GB storage.
4. Intel Ultra 5 226V with Arc graphics, which again means I can play games on this.
5. Charges with USB-C port.
6. 3.42 lb
7. Four USB ports with one Thunderbolt 4 port with DisplayPort™ 2.1 and Power Delivery.
8. HDMI 2.1 port
9. WiFi 7 compared to the Neo's WiFi 6e.

I used Gemini to find this cause I'm lazy. The only downsides is that the Neo does have a brighter screen and it weighs .5 lbs more than the Neo. At literally everything else, the Dell 14 Plus is a better laptop.

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It's got better specs on paper but it still weighs too much, probably due to the thickness. I'm not sure gaming performance is going to matter too much, but Sneaky Sasquatch and Civ VII will play just fine from Apple Arcade on the Neo.

DukenukemX said:

Keep in mind that the Neo has only two USB ports and one of them is USB2.0 speeds. 26 years ago called and wants it's USB2.0 back. What that means is anyone wanting to use a Neo is going to have one that looks like this, with half the I/O missing so even more dongles.

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To riff on what cpufrost said: no, "anyone" is not going to plug in a rat's nest of dongles to use the Neo. They're the sort who might plug in one or two devices at most, like a mouse or an external drive. If they genuinely need more, they'll either get a cheap hub or (if they have intensive needs) move up to a higher-end model.

You keep trying to gauge the Neo's success using yourself as the only benchmark. And what sticks in your craw is knowing that the Neo was never aimed at people like you, appears to be great for its actual target market, and will likely sell well no matter how much you stamp your feet.

USB 2.0 for the mouse (the mouse being such a standard use on a laptop still better having that extra usb even if it is 2.0, almost always it will be used in 1/2 mode anyway), usb 3.0 for charging/external fast drive, someone that want to use more than an USB 3.0 dock level of connectivity should consider paying a bit more for an older MacBook air (of course),

USB 3.0 10GB/s dock/hub is already quite a bit of connectivity for a regular student.

Outside of a mouse I don't use USB for much of anything. I can email or use cloud storage to shift files around from different machines/devices almost instantly.
If you look at what most "business" users are doing on their computers, you're basically looking at browser-based SAAS programs these days. Those are OS agnostic and don't need much in the way of horsepower.

Domingo said:

Outside of a mouse I don't use USB for much of anything. I can email or use cloud storage to shift files around from different machines/devices almost instantly.
If you look at what most "business" users are doing on their computers, you're basically looking at browser-based SAAS programs these days. Those are OS agnostic and don't need much in the way of horsepower.

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Yeah I was gonna say, don't see many people using flashdrives nowadays. The younger kids can barely understand how to use one, school teaches them to use google drive over a flash drive.

ND40oz said:

I've honestly never seen my kids plug in more than a single usb drive into any of their computers. What are you connecting at your desk at school that you'd need 4 separate dongles for?

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USB thumb drives or wired Ethernet. Mouse instead of the touchpad? At some point, you'll be getting one of these. The Dell I linked also has a USB-A port which is labeled 5Gbps.

The Neo only has a 36.5 watt-hour battery but yeah, it's going to take some time to charge on the 20 watt charger. But considering it stays at 4 watts of usage under sustained load currently, you can still run it full tilt and still charge on that 20 watt charger. Based on charging tests done with other Apple adapters, it can charge at a rate of 35 - 40 watts if you want to use a more powerful charger and charge twice as fast.

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I'm not saying any of this is a game changer against the Neo, but it is yet another quality of life missing from the Neo. Which is kinda odd from Apple who's entire business model is making people's lives easier when using their computers.

Aurelius said:

You keep trying to gauge the Neo's success using yourself as the only benchmark. And what sticks in your craw is knowing that the Neo was never aimed at people like you, appears to be great for its actual target market, and will likely sell well no matter how much you stamp your feet.

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So you're saying the Dell I linked would not do a better job than the Neo?

ND40oz said:

It's got better specs on paper but it still weighs too much, probably due to the thickness. I'm not sure gaming performance is going to matter too much, but Sneaky Sasquatch and Civ VII will play just fine from Apple Arcade on the Neo.

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The extra 0.5lbs isn't going to break anyone's back, and it's likely due to all the extra ports that the Neo is missing. Using your logic, the 2024–2026 14-inch MacBook Pro (M4/M5) weighs between 3.4 and 3.6 lbs and is therefore too heavy for students. Sorry Kids, no Macbook Pro's for you because ND40oz thinks you'll break your back with them. I didn't even think about thickness because I didn't think anyone cared. But yes, the Dell is 0.67 inches thick. The Neo is 0.50 inches but 14-inch MacBook Pro's are 0.61 inches thick. So what is too thick?

I assumed after the terrible sales of the iPhone Air that people realized that nobody cares about thickness.

View: https://youtu.be/t9URC-bfhuQ?si=r9naPsZYfWDZSh3b

DukenukemX said:

USB thumb drives or wired Ethernet. Mouse instead of the touchpad? At some point, you'll be getting one of these.

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When I worked as a developer at a previous job and was assigned a Macbook I straight up preferred the touchpad over a mouse. It is to the point where you can buy an external touchpad to use - they are that good.

Windows laptops have had awful touchpads for ages. They did improve them on the surface series, but I'm not sure if other laptops have gotten the memo. I think it is a new standard of precision touch or something for Windows?

Anyway, yeah the touchpad is fine for most people, and some even prefer it on Macbooks. Again, this is aimed at students, I don't think it is convenient for a student to have to pull out a mouse and have space to move it around.

ivandagiant said:

When I worked as a developer at a previous job and was assigned a Macbook I straight up preferred the touchpad over a mouse.

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Yeah, Apple's touchpad is seriously good. On my Mac Pro, I use a wireless touchpad instead of my G903 mouse, because it's THAT good. Going from that to my terribad Dell laptop is an exercise in annoyance. I don't know what it is, but no Windows laptop I have ever used has had what I'd call a "good" pointing device. (Although IBM's "nub" was close back in the T20 / P3 laptop era)

DukenukemX said:

So you're saying the Dell I linked would not do a better job than the Neo?

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It would be better in a few areas, but worse in others. And to a degree, you're missing the point.

It has more base storage, more RAM, extra ports, and a two-in-one touchscreen. Great! But it also has a lower-quality screen, a lower-quality build, lower real-world battery life (based on early Neo results)... and believe it or not, lower performance outside of most games. That's also not including the Neo's $499 price for education, or less tangible differences like Apple's ecosystem tie-ins.

The MacBook Neo might be better if you're a student writing up class notes and reports, as you'll appreciate that nicer screen every day and won't be in as much of a rush to plug in. And let's be honest: a slick MacBook Neo is going to be much more intertesting than a two-year-old Dell, especially once the back-to-school promos kick in (I expect Apple to discount AirPods and other accessories).

The point is that it's not just about bigger numbers. It's about the whole package, and that Apple may well achieve something that Acer, Dell, HP, Lenovo, and other brands wouldn't manage: making a budget laptop feel premium and exude coolness.

DukenukemX said:

USB thumb drives or wired Ethernet. Mouse instead of the touchpad? At some point, you'll be getting one of these. The Dell I linked also has a USB-A port which is labeled 5Gbps.

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The USB drive is only time I'd see them using the port. But for the most part, they're using Google Drive (school) or iCloud (personal) for everything. Plugging in an ethernet cable, they've never done that and likely will never have to on any portable device they ever use. If they want to use a Magic Mouse, they literally just turn it on and it works with their mac.

DukenukemX said:

I'm not saying any of this is a game changer against the Neo, but it is yet another quality of life missing from the Neo. Which is kinda odd from Apple who's entire business model is making people's lives easier when using their computers.

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Apple doesn't include chargers in Europe any longer since USB-C has been mandated by the EU. Surprised they even bothered with Neo in the rest of the world.

DukenukemX said:

So you're saying the Dell I linked would not do a better job than the Neo?

The extra 0.5lbs isn't going to break anyone's back, and it's likely due to all the extra ports that the Neo is missing. Using your logic, the 2024–2026 14-inch MacBook Pro (M4/M5) weighs between 3.4 and 3.6 lbs and is therefore too heavy for students. Sorry Kids, no Macbook Pro's for you because ND40oz thinks you'll break your back with them. I didn't even think about thickness because I didn't think anyone cared. But yes, the Dell is 0.67 inches thick. The Neo is 0.50 inches but 14-inch MacBook Pro's are 0.61 inches thick. So what is too thick?

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When I finally had to replaced my oldests 2015 12" Macbook, there were already complaints about the 13" M3 Air being so much bigger. Somehow that single USB-C port worked for most of middle school on a laptop that had been in use for 10 years. The fact it was stuck on Big Sur was the reason it finally had to go.

ivandagiant said:

When I worked as a developer at a previous job and was assigned a Macbook I straight up preferred the touchpad over a mouse. It is to the point where you can buy an external touchpad to use - they are that good.

Windows laptops have had awful touchpads for ages. They did improve them on the surface series, but I'm not sure if other laptops have gotten the memo. I think it is a new standard of precision touch or something for Windows?

Anyway, yeah the touchpad is fine for most people, and some even prefer it on Macbooks. Again, this is aimed at students, I don't think it is convenient for a student to have to pull out a mouse and have space to move it around.

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My Asus has a better touchpad than my macbooks but it really depends on the brand. It also doesn't just not work when waking up like the M1 Pro.

Darunion said:

I have never been happy with the number of usb ports on a laptop. Though a dock is much nicer so you only plug in one when you get home. The usb 2 port is stupid though imo, and i usually carry a flag for apple lol.

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It would be fine if it was a USB-A port since most people I know leave a USB wireless mouse/keyboard dongle plugged into their laptop all the time.

Aurelius said:

It would be better in a few areas, but worse in others. And to a degree, you're missing the point.

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I really don't think there's a point here other than to defend Apple no matter what bad decisions they do.

But it also has a lower-quality screen,

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Why is the screen lower quality? In most aspects, the Dell screen is better except is has lower nits. I guarantee you it doesn't have 30+ latency with the screen like Apple products do.

a lower-quality build,

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How do you know that? What makes you think the Neo has better build quality?

lower real-world battery life (based on early Neo results)...

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I'm going to assume yes because that Intel CPU generation wasn't exactly power efficient.

and believe it or not, lower performance outside of most games. That's also not including the Neo's $499 price for education, or less tangible differences like Apple's ecosystem tie-ins.

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I'm going to wait until Just Josh does a review of the Neo to see how it actually performs against competing Windows laptops. So far the reviews I see are from your typical Apple only reviewers.

The MacBook Neo might be better if you're a student writing up class notes and reports, as you'll appreciate that nicer screen every day and won't be in as much of a rush to plug in.

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Except for the missing backlit keyboard, only having 2 USB ports which one of them is USB2.0, and it takes twice as long to fully charge. That nicer screen has it's downsides as well, because again someone at the factory forgot to clean off the petroleum jelly on the screen.

And let's be honest: a slick MacBook Neo is going to be much more intertesting than a two-year-old Dell, especially once the back-to-school promos kick in (I expect Apple to discount AirPods and other accessories).

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Just don't pay attention to the two year old A18 Pro that exists in the Neo.

The point is that it's not just about bigger numbers. It's about the whole package, and that Apple may well achieve something that Acer, Dell, HP, Lenovo, and other brands wouldn't manage: making a budget laptop feel premium and exude coolness.

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Yea, I'm not going by feels. I know too much about Apple's history to ever claim they have the "Premium" product. At this point I'm waiting for real reviews to see the actual performance of the Neo, but so far on paper the Neo is as bad as I was expecting it to be.

Everyone is missing the point on this thing....

It is a Enhanced Phone.

Kids now days use their phones as their PCs.

This is what they buy when they go to school. They can use the same charger and accessories. Expect around the same charge time, and probably have it last 2x as long as their phones. There is no point in comparing this to a windows PC, or really even a Macbook.

This is something in between. PC sales have been nose diving for years. Regular people just don't use PCs anymore. Really anyone here that has kids between 13 and 35 knows its true. 95% of them don't own a PC and could give a shit. Outside the odd gamer bro that traded in his xbox or play station for a iffy prebuild or dodgy self build. WE here on [H] are mostly dinosaurs. Once we are gone so is the PC industry as we have known it. Very few outside our aging circle gives a shit that PC ram has went nuts, or that GPUs have been Unobtainium for a few years for multiple different reasons. Maybe we have parents that still have their Email machines... but most people use their phones for damn near everything.

If these are a hit in education its a good thing. Its also probably the future. The Ipad/tablet didn't take off though you would think logically that would be the go to for such users. In the end IMO a tablet is just not big enough to justify putting your phone down for, and its also not small enough to actually replace it in your pocket and people feel stupid carrying a tablet around. This however... the MacBook air has actually been a very popular laptop cause it is just cool enough and frankly fun enough to lug around.

Apple will go after education hard cause these are a perfect upgrade from crap ass chrome books. Apple has great education multi device enrollment tools... they upped their game in that space when google swooped in. Chrome books sell in education as much for how easy they are to support as for how cheap they are. Apple may also find a real niche in college student use. Again a lot of kids are going off to school these days not owning a PC at all never mind a laptop. Looking it up just now DukenukemX 20% of iphone users are 18-24 years old.... another 23% are 25-34.... almost half of iphone users are under the age of 34. Think about it over 200m devices sold in the world yearly and almost 100m of them are being used by people under 34 and what % of those do you think have their phone as their ONLY computing device? Its a massive number.
Neo is for those people. Tablets haven't sold to them, tablets seem pointless. A neo might be the exat middle of the road device for that market. I have a feeling we are going ot be shocked by how many of these Apple sells in the next couple years. 8gb??? Who gives a fuck the audience for these things don't even really understand what RAM does. They know their iphones have 8gb, must be good.

ChadD said:

Everyone is missing the point on this thing....

It is a Enhanced Phone.

Kids now days use their phones as their PCs.

This is what they buy when they go to school. They can use the same charger and accessories. Expect around the same charge time, and probably have it last 2x as long as their phones. There is no point in comparing this to a windows PC, or really even a Macbook.

This is something in between. PC sales have been nose diving for years. Regular people just don't use PCs anymore. Really anyone here that has kids between 13 and 35 knows its true. 95% of them don't own a PC and could give a shit. Outside the odd gamer bro that traded in his xbox or play station for a iffy prebuild or dodgy self build. WE here on [H] are mostly dinosaurs. Once we are gone so is the PC industry as we have known it. Very few outside our aging circle gives a shit that PC ram has went nuts, or that GPUs have been Unobtainium for a few years for multiple different reasons. Maybe we have parents that still have their Email machines... but most people use their phones for damn near everything.

If these are a hit in education its a good thing. Its also probably the future. The Ipad/tablet didn't take off though you would think logically that would be the go to for such users. In the end IMO a tablet is just not big enough to justify putting your phone down for, and its also not small enough to actually replace it in your pocket and people feel stupid carrying a tablet around. This however... the MacBook air has actually been a very popular laptop cause it is just cool enough and frankly fun enough to lug around.

Apple will go after education hard cause these are a perfect upgrade from crap ass chrome books. Apple has great education multi device enrollment tools... they upped their game in that space when google swooped in. Chrome books sell in education as much for how easy they are to support as for how cheap they are. Apple may also find a real niche in college student use. Again a lot of kids are going off to school these days not owning a PC at all never mind a laptop. Looking it up just now DukenukemX 20% of iphone users are 18-24 years old.... another 23% are 25-34.... almost half of iphone users are under the age of 34. Think about it over 200m devices sold in the world yearly and almost 100m of them are being used by people under 34 and what % of those do you think have their phone as their ONLY computing device? Its a massive number.
Neo is for those people. Tablets haven't sold to them, tablets seem pointless. A neo might be the exat middle of the road device for that market. I have a feeling we are going ot be shocked by how many of these Apple sells in the next couple years. 8gb??? Who gives a fuck the audience for these things don't even really understand what RAM does. They know their iphones have 8gb, must be good.

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Sad but true . The newcomers are mostly still console/phone users at heart even if they have a PC.

DukenukemX said:

Why is the screen lower quality? In most aspects, the Dell screen is better except is has lower nits. I guarantee you it doesn't have 30+ latency with the screen like Apple products do.

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It's not only much dimmer (250 nits peak versus 500), but lower-resolution (1200p versus 1506p). PCWorld notes that Dell's panel is barely bright enough for indoor use, and describes the output as "dull."

DukenukemX said:

How do you know that? What makes you think the Neo has better build quality?

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While the Inspiron is aluminum, there are a few issues, such as the narrow hinges (more likely to fail than Apple's monolithic design) and a trackpad that only registers clicks in the corners and requires a lot of travel (Apple's trackpad lets you click anywhere using gentler presses).The speaker quality is described as "audible mud."

DukenukemX said:

I'm going to wait until Just Josh does a review of the Neo to see how it actually performs against competing Windows laptops. So far the reviews I see are from your typical Apple only reviewers.

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There are already reviews comparing against comparable Windows machines (some x86, some ARM). It's also a bit ironic to be waiting for Just Josh; the team is very throrough and generally recommends MacBooks over Windows machines due to performance, build quality, and battery life.

DukenukemX said:

Just don't pay attention to the two year old A18 Pro that exists in the Neo.

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As opposed to the two-year-old low-end Ryzen in the Inspiron?

DukenukemX said:

Yea, I'm not going by feels. I know too much about Apple's history to ever claim they have the "Premium" product. At this point I'm waiting for real reviews to see the actual performance of the Neo, but so far on paper the Neo is as bad as I was expecting it to be.

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I'm not talking "feels," I'm just talking about things beyond specs, like design, real-world performance, and platform integration.

i was reading a good analysis by Counterpoint Research that mainly talks about Apple's potential resurgence in higher education versus Chromebooks, but also makes a point about ecosystem advantages. Google has done well in education because it could own the complete stack through Chromebooks, Classroom, and Workspace. Apple has its own ecosystem edge for people who buy their own devices, whether or not they're taking classes. The college freshman who's used to an iPhone will have a better time with a Mac than any other platform (even with Microsoft's efforts to improve iCloud/message support).

Prince Valiant said:

Sad but true . The newcomers are mostly still console/phone users at heart even if they have a PC.

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I wouldn't call it sad, just different. The older among us see the PC as the cornerstone because, for a long while, we didn't have a choice. But there's now an entire generation that has grown up with smartphones and tablets that are frequently s powerful as computers, but easier to use; gaming often doesn't feel like a compromise on a console.

I won't be surprised if they experience their own culture shock when their kids grow up wearing smart glasses and AI devices. "You mean you had to touch something to perform computing tasks? How quaint!"

Teardown, no glue, looks like everything is easily replaceable.


View: https://youtu.be/5k7Lv7f-5CQ

For discussion on the competition's response:

ASUS co-CEO SY Hsu said in an earnings call that the Neo was a "shock to the entire industry," and said there have been discussions among companies about how to respond. He believes Microsoft, Intel, and AMD are looking at how to compete.

Microsoft's former Windows head, Steven Sinofsky, called the Neo a "paradigm shifting computer" and argued that it validated the basics of the Windows 8 / early Surface model. He felt Microsoft's main mistake was insisting on a new app model when customers weren't ready. I wouldn't entirely agree with that (Windows 8 was a rushed, panicked response to the iPad). He does nail something important, though: Microsoft's insistence on legacy support ("run everything forever") cost it dearly where Apple's modernization meant both the hardware and the audience were prepared.

Aurelius said:

For discussion on the competition's response:

ASUS co-CEO SY Hsu said in an earnings call that the Neo was a "shock to the entire industry," and said there have been discussions among companies about how to respond. He believes Microsoft, Intel, and AMD are looking at how to compete.

Microsoft's former Windows head, Steven Sinofsky, called the Neo a "paradigm shifting computer" and argued that it validated the basics of the Windows 8 / early Surface model. He felt Microsoft's main mistake was insisting on a new app model when customers weren't ready. I wouldn't entirely agree with that (Windows 8 was a rushed, panicked response to the iPad). He does nail something important, though: Microsoft's insistence on legacy support ("run everything forever") cost it dearly where Apple's modernization meant both the hardware and the audience were prepared.

Click to expand...

It makes sense. Apple has a bunch of different SOC models they can put into their devices. Even the Apple TV is powered by an iPhone chip. This is the power afforded to a company that develops their own silicon and works within a fully walled garden environment; they have a ton of flexibility for production creation and placement.

Chromebooks wish they were that versatile.

madpistol said:

It makes sense. Apple has a bunch of different SOC models they can put into their devices. Even the Apple TV is powered by an iPhone chip. This is the power afforded to a company that develops their own silicon and works within a fully walled garden environment; they have a ton of flexibility for production creation and placement.

Chromebooks wish they were that versatile.

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I'd add that Apple has raw logistical power behind it. The company is one of the largest silicon purchasers on the planet, to the point where suppliers will bend over backward to make sure it gets chips. Even large rivals like ASUS don't have that luxury. So Apple may know that it can sell the Neo for $599 through its entire lifecycle where the competition doesn't even know if their prices will hold next month.

We'll see how things shake out, but there's a very real possibility that comparable Windows laptops and Chromebooks will be significantly more expensive in the next few months. There would be tremendous irony to Apple suddenly becoming the value champ after decades of refusing to even enter the budget laptop category.

Aurelius said:

I'd add that Apple has raw logistical power behind it. The company is one of the largest silicon purchasers on the planet, to the point where suppliers will bend over backward to make sure it gets chips. Even large rivals like ASUS don't have that luxury. So Apple may know that it can sell the Neo for $599 through its entire lifecycle where the competition doesn't even know if their prices will hold next month.

We'll see how things shake out, but there's a very real possibility that comparable Windows laptops and Chromebooks will be significantly more expensive in the next few months. There would be tremendous irony to Apple suddenly becoming the value champ after decades of refusing to even enter the budget laptop category.

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Even consider how many of these chips they just had sitting around they needed to use up....

Do they yank these out of previous models phones that cant be repaired and use the cpu and ram in the NEO...so many options of what they could do..

Quick review from Jeff Geerling:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwuKCgSgcR4

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOe-Ock4pnw

Interesting one. Robocop was interesting. He talks about the ram usage and figures its using SSD swap... but its likely just using compressed RAM swap. Surprising its getting squeezed in.

That ETA Prime video touched on Intel iGPU perf and I looked it up and was surprised how decently they perform. Seems Intel's integrated GPU is now called 'Arc', too, like their discrete cards and supports the same upscaling and multi-frame gen. One video I saw had Cyberpunk running at 60FPS (or 110FPS with frame gen) on low. Miles better than what I remember iGPU perf was like 10 years ago (actually even just 5 years ago when I built my PC before the GPU arrived).

Aurelius said:

He does nail something important, though: Microsoft's insistence on legacy support ("run everything forever") cost it dearly where Apple's modernization meant both the hardware and the audience were prepared.

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It's that legacy support that keeps people using Windows and x86. Take that away and Windows loses it's dominance. It's not like DOS is still a thing. You need DOSBox to run old DOS programs properly. Also, Linux runs everything forever but you don't see a problem.

Red Falcon said:

Quick review from Jeff Geerling:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwuKCgSgcR4

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The Neo seems to perform the same as the M1 chips. Which would mean M2 chips are better.

madpistol said:

It makes sense. Apple has a bunch of different SOC models they can put into their devices. Even the Apple TV is powered by an iPhone chip. This is the power afforded to a company that develops their own silicon and works within a fully walled garden environment; they have a ton of flexibility for production creation and placement.

Chromebooks wish they were that versatile.

Click to expand...

Putting in an iPhone chip in what is the equivalent of a Kodi box is not something special. Also, there are Android devices that work just like Apple TV's. They call them Android TV's.

ChadD said:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOe-Ock4pnw

Interesting one. Robocop was interesting. He talks about the ram usage and figures its using SSD swap... but its likely just using compressed RAM swap. Surprising its getting squeezed in.

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He also mentions Cyberpunk 2077 was set to 708x443 by default. That's running it nearly at 640X480, which was a resolution I ran Quake 3 Arena over 20 years ago. Should also be noted that Cyberpunk 2077 also runs in 8GB just fine on Windows.

View: https://youtu.be/bK5J5H0qG0Y?si=I8UlttnsxzVAjG5y

Okatis said:

That ETA Prime video touched on Intel iGPU perf and I looked it up and was surprised how decently they perform. Seems Intel's integrated GPU is now called 'Arc', too, like their discrete cards and supports the same upscaling and multi-frame gen. One video I saw had Cyberpunk running at 60FPS (or 110FPS with frame gen) on low. Miles better than what I remember iGPU perf was like 10 years ago (actually even just 5 years ago when I built my PC before the GPU arrived).

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Arc has been around for a number of years now. This is why I said that "I could game on this" when it came to Intel chips. AMD has been doing good with iGPU's as well, but they stuck with Vega graphics for far too long. AMD Rembrandt is as far back as I'd go for a mobile laptop chip, just because it's got RDNA2. It can also play Cybepunk 2077 at an acceptable resolution. Ryzen 7 6800H is about 4 years old now.

View: https://youtu.be/pMVH07rd3Ig?si=IDe_8Kl1HGRD2ztx

Okatis said:

That ETA Prime video touched on Intel iGPU perf and I looked it up and was surprised how decently they perform. Seems Intel's integrated GPU is now called 'Arc', too, like their discrete cards and supports the same upscaling and multi-frame gen. One video I saw had Cyberpunk running at 60FPS (or 110FPS with frame gen) on low. Miles better than what I remember iGPU perf was like 10 years ago (actually even just 5 years ago when I built my PC before the GPU arrived).

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The latest Intel laptop chips are amazing yeah, incredibly efficient too, in some situations (like gaming) competing with ARM chips. But you can only find them in expensive laptops (I don't think it can be found in anything lower than 1500-2000 range). Hardware Canucks has a good video on it.

DukenukemX said:

It's that legacy support that keeps people using Windows and x86. Take that away and Windows loses it's dominance. It's not like DOS is still a thing. You need DOSBox to run old DOS programs properly. Also, Linux runs everything forever but you don't see a problem.

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It is, but it's also the thing that has repeatedly held Microsoft back. On top of ensuring the doom of Windows 8 and early ARM-based Surface machines (maybe even the present-day models), it has stopped business customers from upgrading. prevented Microsoft from moving to newer frameworks, and even magnified global security crises like WannaCry.

And I wouldn't brag too much about Linux. Its desktop market share remains small, and the corporate world remains its largest practical audience. There's an irony to bringing this up in the MacBook Neo thread as that computer is poised to give Apple more market share, possibly at the expense of Linux — ChromeOS and Android have roots in Linux, after all.

ChadD said:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOe-Ock4pnw

Interesting one. Robocop was interesting. He talks about the ram usage and figures its using SSD swap... but its likely just using compressed RAM swap. Surprising its getting squeezed in.

Click to expand...

It would be nice to see some Apple Arcade games tested.

Aurelius said:

The company is one of the largest silicon purchasers on the planet, to the point where suppliers will bend over backward to make sure it gets chips. Even large rivals like ASUS don't have that luxury. So Apple may know that it can sell the Neo for $599 through its entire lifecycle where the competition doesn't even know if their prices will hold next month.

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giant differrence between the 2 by now has well, post sales revenues on devices, that why even very large (bigger in laptops) sellers like Lenovo could have an hard time to keep up.

DukenukemX said:

Also, Linux runs everything forever but you don't see a problem.

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I thought famously not, to the point that it is really nice to have the source to rebuild it because old binary have a lot of issues, windows level of out of the box binary backward compatibility is really special (using 1997 cd to install very complex app stuff that work right out of the box can happen...).

Linux tend to be aggressive in improving without minding risking to break things and to be fragmented with a mentality just rebuilt with the new central library, it got better in the latest decade with the flatpak and others, but try to run a built in 1998 Blender or Gimp on the latest Ubuntu, if it was not static build specially how well would it go ?

DukenukemX said:

The Neo seems to perform the same as the M1 chips. Which would mean M2 chips are better.

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150-160mm chip in the $1200 device of 2022 was indeed a bit better than the 105mm chip in the $600 device at many things (not peak single core perf big gap in favor of the neo there which could be one of the most important metric for the buyer of a neo or efficacy or NPU capacity)

That not special for much smaller and cheaper device to not match in everything the bigger/more expensive one of the past in every aspect (we see this with GPUs, motherboard socket and cpus all the time).



that level of single core performance unplugged will make it one of the snappiest device around for many things.

Aurelius said:

And I wouldn't brag too much about Linux. Its desktop market share remains small, and the corporate world remains its largest practical audience. There's an irony to bringing this up in the MacBook Neo thread as that computer is poised to give Apple more market share, possibly at the expense of Linux — ChromeOS and Android have roots in Linux, after all.

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I agree this is going to hurt chrome... and yes it is Linux, not just roots in. This is going to hurt windows PCs more. Windows laptop sales were already hurting.

I will say Duke isn't completely correct about Linux for that matter. Linux is no slave to backwards compatibility. Yes 40 year old simple scripts will run. But things built using APIs and scripting languages run into the same issues windows or mac software would run into trying to execute without the proper frameworks being installed. What saves Linux is more that most of the oldest software isn't written for a GUI. In modern terms we have tons of software written for X windowing systems that do not run on Wayland. We have things like Xvideobridge software in some DEs to bridge that stuff, but much of it just won't run. We have decided that we will be going to wayland however and projects can update or piss off. (half joking) The same is true in many other areas that is just one most people using Linux as a Desktop/game box understand. X and Wayland software are not interoperable.

Desktop share sure its small for now. (for as long as the desktop segment even exists... it clearly isn't going to exist forever) Still its a fact at this point that 80%+ of the world runs on Linux... and even windows users are powered in many ways by Linux. All those co pilot calls are being run on Microsoft Linux servers.... lol Sorry that is hilarious but true. Also true however for MS online storage that many windows users all of that stuff is running on Linux. If we count MacOS as a *nix OS we can up the % a bit. MacOS obviously isn't Linux... it is XNU (XNU is not Unix) accept it kinda is. We have ZSH shell on Linux (Macs default shell) and you can run bash on Mac. You can run Linux scripts on Macs. Way back Next went with BSD for the licence... Linux would have forced them to share.

ND40oz said:

It would be nice to see some Apple Arcade games tested.

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That is what he failed to cover isn't it. As interest as it is to make a Mac run things not specifically designed for it. There are a lot more Apple focused games. I'm sure they all run well. Basically anything that runs well on a newer Iphone should run well on this right?

I am shocked Apple hasn't released something like a Samsung Dex for the iphone. Clearly the newer Iphones could sit in a dock and power a decent basic desktop experience.

ChadD said:

That is what he failed to cover isn't it. As interest as it is to make a Mac run things not specifically designed for it. There are a lot more Apple focused games. I'm sure they all run well. Basically anything that runs well on a newer Iphone should run well on this right?

I am shocked Apple hasn't released something like a Samsung Dex for the iphone. Clearly the newer Iphones could sit in a dock and power a decent basic desktop experience.

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Don't want to cannibalize sales was my thoughts, but earlier in the thread someone said Apple isn't afraid to cannibalize their own sales... I disagree with that take.

No samsung dex-like for iPhones, no touchscreen on Macbooks, and neutered operating system on iPad to prevent it from being a true laptop replacement (although iPadOS has gotten much better lately)

ChadD said:

I'm sure they all run well. Basically anything that runs well on a newer Iphone should run well on this right?

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for those with an MacOS version, it must run really well, they do not provide an emulator for the iOS only title too, so things could run well on an iPhone and not be available at all on MacOS.

ChadD said:

That is what he failed to cover isn't it. As interest as it is to make a Mac run things not specifically designed for it. There are a lot more Apple focused games. I'm sure they all run well. Basically anything that runs well on a newer Iphone should run well on this right?

I am shocked Apple hasn't released something like a Samsung Dex for the iphone. Clearly the newer Iphones could sit in a dock and power a decent basic desktop experience.

Click to expand...

Apple is extremely anti-cross-platform with their devices. I it runs on ipad or iphone chances are they don't let you run it on a mac because reasons? It's always annoyed me because I'd love to play my mobile games on a mac since most all of them would play better there but they won't let you.