Surround Sound System Speaker advice.

[Fire488]

Hello everyone,

It’s been a while since I posted here. I’m looking for some advice regarding my family room surround sound system.

My previous receiver, a Denon AVR-1909, recently failed. I replaced it with a Denon AVR-X2900H. The new receiver is obviously newer and more capable, but my current speakers now sound noticeably thinner and tinnier than they did with the old receiver. Dialogue and vocals are the biggest issue. They used to sound fuller and richer, but now they have more of a “megaphone” type sound.

I have tried adjusting crossovers, speaker levels, surround modes, ECO mode, and other settings, but I have not been able to get the sound where I want it.

I spoke with an audio guy at Best Buy, and he basically laughed and told me my current speakers are the weak link. I laughed too, because they are old, and he may be right.

Here is my current setup:

Room:
Family room
17 ft 8 in x 15 ft 5 in
9 ft ceilings
Approximately 272 sq ft
Approximately 2,450 cubic ft
Santos Mahogany hardwood floors
Room is not overly echoey, but it does not have carpet. The couches are the main sound absorption in the room.

TV:
75-inch Samsung TV
Exact model number TBD

Receiver:
Denon AVR-X2900H

Current Speaker Setup:
5.1 surround system

Front Left / Center / Front Right:
Bose Acoustimass 7 cube speakers

Important note:
I do not have or use the Bose Acoustimass bass module. The Bose cubes are connected directly to the receiver and are used with a separate powered subwoofer.

Rear Surround Left / Rear Surround Right:
Bose 101 Series II speakers

Subwoofer:
MartinLogan Dynamo 500 powered subwoofer

Known subwoofer issue:
The RCA/LFE input jack on the rear panel is damaged/broken. I am currently using the working left RCA input.

Speaker Placement:
One of my main limitations is speaker placement. The current front and rear speakers are mounted high in the room corners and aimed toward the main seating position. That setup worked well with the old receiver.

I would prefer to keep a similar placement if possible, either wall-mounted or corner-mounted speakers. I cannot really place large floorstanding speakers in this room, and some lower speaker locations would be blocked by furniture or couches.

The subwoofer is currently in the front-left area of the room. That is basically the only realistic location for it.

Main Question:
What speakers would you recommend for this room and setup?

The system is used for TV, movies, and also music during parties. I play music through a Sonos Connect into the Denon, while outdoor music is handled separately through Sonos speakers.

Potential Upgrade I Am Considering:
SVS Ultra Evolution Center
Four SVS Ultra Evolution Elevation speakers
SVS PB-1000 Pro subwoofer
SVS SoundPath Subwoofer Isolation System

My biggest concern is the center speaker placement. The SVS Ultra Evolution Center may not fit inside my current media console, so I may need to rethink placement, possibly raising the TV and placing the center speaker on top of the console under the TV.

I’ll attach pictures of the room so you can see the layout, speaker positions, TV wall, furniture, and seating area. LOL, the chubby guy in the mirror is yours truly.

I’m looking for honest opinions. I do not want to overspend unnecessarily, but I also do not want to cheap out and regret it. I want a clean, full, rich sound with strong dialogue and good music performance.

 

[toast0]

How broken is the old receiver? Can you get the setup/eq settings off of it?

I feel like if used to sound good and all you did is change the receiver, you should be able to get it to sound good again.

Unless you blow them out or otherwise mistreat them, speakers aren't really a wear item that needs replacing because of age.

Of course, if you've got the itch, you've got the itch.

I don't know if you are going to find any centers that fit in that cabinet. You might have to compromise and go 4.1. I'm a fan of floor standing fronts, you could move the cat tower on the right (you can get Dolby Catmos when the cat climbs on the speaker), but on the left I don't know that you have room for a floorstanding and the sub. I've got debut 2.0 f62 fronts in my living room with 6.5" woofers and they go pretty low, so you could try subless... If you add fronts, you could leave your cubes in the corner as front height or something.

 

[sharknice]

Your subwoofer not being used could be the reason the sound is so off compared to the old. Maybe fix that issue before you go for new speakers.

 

[pendragon1]

yeah, you should be able to match the settings and get it sounding better. i just got a x3800h (id move up to the x3900h for 5.1.4, iiwy) and it is def not acting like that.
what do you have crossovers at, the blanket 80 or match them to the speaker spec? make sure they are NOT on full range. also make sure under audio>audyssey you turn off the surround level boosting, LFC and dynamic volume(dyn eq is ok). you have ran the room correction, right?!

id see if you can fit that centre you picked. if its short enough to fit into the cabinet do that(7.7"), if its too deep, id take out those unneeded supports. if not, then put it on top and move the tv up, its what i had to do. i would get wall mounts/floating shelves and a set of the evo bookshelfs instead of their atmos/height units, you already have those in place...

"what would i do?" exchange the receiver for the 3900/4900 to get up to 5.1.4 since you have the heights in place. then id get a set of 4 svs bookselfs, the centre and the sub. if not, do 5.1.2 with the boses as front heights.

 

[toast0]

what do you have crossovers at, the blanket 80 or match them to the speaker spec? make sure they are NOT on full range.

Also, since you can't use the LFE in port on the sub, so you probably can't have the filter bypass on, make sure the crossover control on the sub is all the way up --- the receiver will handle crossover, the sub shouldn't need to.

With those speakers, I would expect the crossover set as high as the sub can manage would be best. But if the sub is wonky because of the input jack situation, I dunno. Input jack issues are often pretty easy to fix with a little soldering. And if you break it the rest of the way, you can get a nice new sub

 

[pendragon1]

Also, since you can't use the LFE in port on the sub, so you probably can't have the filter bypass on, make sure the crossover control on the sub is all the way up --- the receiver will handle crossover, the sub shouldn't need to.

With those speakers, I would expect the crossover set as high as the sub can manage would be best. But if the sub is wonky because of the input jack situation, I dunno. Input jack issues are often pretty easy to fix with a little soldering. And if you break it the rest of the way, you can get a nice new sub

the audyssey setup should prompt for adjusting the sub and will say that(should, mine does). i have a fosi amp for my custom sub and it prompted to set the amp to full range and ~30% power.
yup, probably going to be like 160+.
yup, worst case, wire in a pig tail for the lfe but it should work proper after the setup.

 

[chockomonkey]

Lol of course the Best Buy tard wants you to buy new speakers

I've been running the same Boston Acoustic 5.1 speakers I got back in high school for 25 years at this point on various receivers and they sound as good as the day I got them.

Definitely a configuration issue imo

 

[Darunion]

I'd probably put the cat tower on top of the sub. With a cat or two on it, should help reduce any resonance from the box.

Also try a factory reset on the receiver. I have run into new in box had settings changed on it. Just in case that happened or you changed a setting and then forgot. Just always good to start fresh, change one thing and then go back.

 

[Fire488]

The old receiver was a Denon AVR-1909, and unfortunately it is already gone. I had it checked and was told it had a main amp failure along with other issues, and it was not worth repairing. So I cannot pull the old EQ/setup settings from it.

I agree with your point that speakers do not necessarily wear out just because they are old. In my case, I am not replacing them strictly because of age. I am replacing them because I am no longer happy with the sound I am getting from them, especially with dialogue and vocals. The front Bose Acoustimass cubes are being used without the original Bose Acoustimass bass module, connected directly to the receiver, along with a separate powered subwoofer. They worked better with the old Denon, but with the new AVR-X2900H they sound thin and tinny, even after trying different crossover points, levels, and surround modes.

I also agree that the center speaker is the biggest placement problem. I do not think I am going to find a center that fits well inside the existing cabinet without compromising too much. My current thought is to raise the TV and place a proper center speaker on top of the console, directly under the TV.

Floorstanding speakers are probably not realistic in this room. The right side has the cat tower (Kidding LOL), and the left side has the subwoofer location, which is basically the only practical spot for the sub. I also do not really want to move to a 4.1 setup. I would rather keep a proper 5.1 system with a real center channel.

The reason I am looking at the SVS Elevation speakers is because the current speakers are mounted high in the room corners and aimed toward the main seating position, and that placement works well in this room. I need something that can be wall/corner mounted and aimed properly, while still giving me a much fuller and cleaner sound than the Bose cubes.

So I am not totally closed to other ideas, but floorstanding fronts and 4.1 are probably out for this room. I am mainly trying to figure out whether the SVS setup is a smart direction, or whether there is another wall-mounted 5.1 option that would be a better fit. Thank you very much for the reply.

 

[Fire488]

Your subwoofer not being used could be the reason the sound is so off compared to the old. Maybe fix that issue before you go for new speakers.

Thanks, that’s a fair point.

Just to clarify, I am using the MartinLogan Dynamo 500 subwoofer now, and I was also using it with the old Denon AVR-1909 setup. The old receiver was not using the original Bose Acoustimass bass module either. The Bose cubes were connected directly to the receiver, with the MartinLogan handling the subwoofer duties.

The new Denon AVR-X2900H actually does some things much better than the old receiver. The surround field is noticeably better. Watching the FIFA/World Cup games, for example, sounds amazing, almost like being in the stadium. Movies also have much better surround effects than before.

My issue is more with the tonal quality of the front speakers, especially vocals and dialogue. They sound a little thinner/tinnier than I would like. So part of this is troubleshooting, but part of it is also that I think I’m ready to upgrade the speakers to something fuller and cleaner.

I appreciate the advice, though. I may still repair the MartinLogan subwoofer input, but I’m leaning toward upgrading the speakers regardless.

 

[Fire488]

yeah, you should be able to match the settings and get it sounding better. i just got a x3800h (id move up to the x3900h for 5.1.4, iiwy) and it is def not acting like that.
what do you have crossovers at, the blanket 80 or match them to the speaker spec? make sure they are NOT on full range. also make sure under audio>audyssey you turn off the surround level boosting, LFC and dynamic volume(dyn eq is ok). you have ran the room correction, right?!

id see if you can fit that centre you picked. if its short enough to fit into the cabinet do that(7.7"), if its too deep, id take out those unneeded supports. if not, then put it on top and move the tv up, its what i had to do. i would get wall mounts/floating shelves and a set of the evo bookshelfs instead of their atmos/height units, you already have those in place...

View attachment 812693
View attachment 812690

"what would i do?" exchange the receiver for the 3900/4900 to get up to 5.1.4 since you have the heights in place. then id get a set of 4 svs bookselfs, the centre and the sub. if not, do 5.1.2 with the boses as front heights.

Thanks, this is helpful.

I am going to keep the Denon AVR-X2900H for now. I understand the idea of moving up to a receiver that can do 5.1.4, but I do not really want to get into Atmos/height channels in this room right now. My goal is a strong, clean 5.1 setup.

I did run Audyssey room correction, and I also went back through the setup manually afterward. I measured speaker distances, checked levels, adjusted dB settings, checked crossovers, and played with the sound modes. All speakers are set to Small, not Full Range.

Current crossover setup is roughly:

Front Bose Acoustimass cubes: around 250 Hz
Center Bose Acoustimass cube: around 250 Hz, though I have tested 200 Hz
Rear Bose 101s: I need to verify, but I believe around 100 Hz to 120 Hz
Subwoofer/LFE: 120 Hz

I also checked ECO mode and turned that off. I have tried different surround modes as well. The new Denon actually does some things much better than the old receiver. The surround field is excellent. Watching soccer, for example, sounds almost like being in the stadium. Movies also have much better surround effects than before.

The issue is really the tonal quality of the front stage, especially vocals and dialogue. It is not that the system has no sound or no surround effect. It is that the Bose cubes sound thinner and tinnier than I want. I think I am just asking too much from those small cubes at this point, especially without the original Bose Acoustimass module.

I’ll double-check the Audyssey settings you mentioned, especially surround level boosting, LFC, and Dynamic Volume. I believe Dynamic Volume is off, but I will confirm. Dynamic EQ may still be on.

For the center speaker, I agree that placement is the main challenge. I do not think I want to force the center into the cabinet. My current plan is to raise the TV and place the center speaker on top of the console, directly under the TV. That seems like the best way to avoid compromising the center channel.

For the other speakers, I would prefer wall-mounted speakers rather than floating shelves or floorstanding speakers. The current speakers are mounted high in the corners and aimed toward the main seating position, and that works well for the room layout. That is why I have been looking at the SVS Ultra Evolution Elevation speakers. They seem to fit the placement needs better than traditional bookshelf speakers on shelves.

I appreciate the receiver and Atmos suggestion, but for this room I think I want to stay focused on getting the best 5.1 setup I can with proper wall-mounted speakers and a real center channel.

 

[Fire488]

Also, since you can't use the LFE in port on the sub, so you probably can't have the filter bypass on, make sure the crossover control on the sub is all the way up --- the receiver will handle crossover, the sub shouldn't need to.

With those speakers, I would expect the crossover set as high as the sub can manage would be best. But if the sub is wonky because of the input jack situation, I dunno. Input jack issues are often pretty easy to fix with a little soldering. And if you break it the rest of the way, you can get a nice new sub

Thanks, that makes sense.

You’re correct, because the LFE input jack on the MartinLogan Dynamo 500 is damaged, I’m currently using the working left RCA input. So I need to double-check the sub’s physical crossover control and make sure it is turned all the way up, since the Denon should be handling the bass management/crossover.

The sub is definitely producing bass, and honestly it is one of the better-sounding parts of the current system. But I agree the damaged LFE input could be affecting how cleanly everything is integrating.

I actually ordered a replacement RCA jack for the subwoofer and I’m going to attempt the repair when it comes in. From what I’ve seen, this seems to be a fairly common failure point on this model, and it looks like a pretty straightforward solder repair. At this point, I don’t have much to lose. If I fix it, great. If I break it worse, then I have a good excuse to upgrade the sub.

For now, I’ll check the sub’s crossover knob and make sure it is set as high as possible while using the left RCA input. Then I’ll let the Denon handle the crossover settings.

 

[Fire488]

the audyssey setup should prompt for adjusting the sub and will say that(should, mine does). i have a fosi amp for my custom sub and it prompted to set the amp to full range and ~30% power.
yup, probably going to be like 160+.
yup, worst case, wire in a pig tail for the lfe but it should work proper after the setup.

That makes sense.

When I ran Audyssey on the Denon, it did prompt me for the subwoofer level, and I adjusted it during setup. The sub is producing bass, but because I’m using the left RCA input instead of the damaged LFE input, I need to double-check the physical crossover knob on the back of the sub and make sure it is turned all the way up. That way the Denon is still doing the bass management as much as possible.

The Bose cubes are crossed very high right now, around 250 Hz for the front stage. I did test lowering the center to around 200 Hz, but the improvement was limited. The rear Bose 101s are lower, but I need to confirm the exact setting.

I agree that the LFE input repair is probably worth doing. I already ordered a replacement RCA jack and plan to attempt the repair. If the replacement jack works, I should be able to use the LFE input properly again and rerun Audyssey with the sub set up the correct way.

Worst case, I could wire in a pigtail or panel-mount RCA for the LFE input, but I’m going to try to repair the original board first.

 

[Fire488]

Lol of course the Best Buy tard wants you to buy new speakers

I've been running the same Boston Acoustic 5.1 speakers I got back in high school for 25 years at this point on various receivers and they sound as good as the day I got them.

Definitely a configuration issue imo

I hear you, and I agree that configuration can make a huge difference. That is why I have been trying to rule that out first before spending money.

I’ve run Audyssey, checked distances, levels, speaker size, crossovers, surround modes, ECO settings, and the subwoofer setup. I’m still going to keep playing with the settings, especially the Audyssey and subwoofer crossover side of things.

That said, I do think my situation is a little different than a quality older Boston Acoustics 5.1 set. My front stage is Bose Acoustimass cubes being used without the original Acoustimass module, connected directly to the receiver, with a separate powered subwoofer. They did sound better with the old Denon, but I think I may be hitting the limits of what those small cubes can do, especially for fuller dialogue and vocals.

As far as the Best Buy guy, LOL, but he actually seemed knowledgeable, and I’m not just going to buy whatever he recommends. I’m using his visit more to evaluate the room, placement, wiring, and center speaker options.

I’m still open to the possibility that there is a configuration issue, but I’m also considering that this may simply be the right time to upgrade to a better 5.1 speaker setup.

 

[Fire488]

I'd probably put the cat tower on top of the sub. With a cat or two on it, should help reduce any resonance from the box.

Also try a factory reset on the receiver. I have run into new in box had settings changed on it. Just in case that happened or you changed a setting and then forgot. Just always good to start fresh, change one thing and then go back.

The cat tower on top of the sub might be the cheapest acoustic treatment I’ve been offered so far. I’ll have to see if the cats are willing to cooperate.

On the receiver reset, that is a fair suggestion. The old Denon AVR-1909 is already gone. It had a major failure and was checked out, but given the age and the issues, it did not make sense to repair it.

The new receiver is the Denon AVR-X2900H, and I have gone through a lot of the setup already. I ran Audyssey, checked speaker distances, levels, crossovers, sound modes, ECO mode, and subwoofer settings. That said, I understand your point about starting fresh. If I keep chasing settings and still cannot get it where I want, I may do a factory reset on the new Denon and build the setup back one step at a time.

For now, I’m going to keep working through the setup, repair the LFE/RCA input on the MartinLogan sub if possible, and also continue exploring the speaker upgrade path. I appreciate the advice.

 

[sharknice]

Thanks, that’s a fair point.

Just to clarify, I am using the MartinLogan Dynamo 500 subwoofer now, and I was also using it with the old Denon AVR-1909 setup. The old receiver was not using the original Bose Acoustimass bass module either. The Bose cubes were connected directly to the receiver, with the MartinLogan handling the subwoofer duties.

The new Denon AVR-X2900H actually does some things much better than the old receiver. The surround field is noticeably better. Watching the FIFA/World Cup games, for example, sounds amazing, almost like being in the stadium. Movies also have much better surround effects than before.

My issue is more with the tonal quality of the front speakers, especially vocals and dialogue. They sound a little thinner/tinnier than I would like. So part of this is troubleshooting, but part of it is also that I think I’m ready to upgrade the speakers to something fuller and cleaner.

I appreciate the advice, though. I may still repair the MartinLogan subwoofer input, but I’m leaning toward upgrading the speakers regardless.

Elac Debut speakers are really good for the money. I bought some Debut v2 speakers about 5 years ago for my home theater and love them. I did a bunch of research and they were widely regarded as the best for the price I was willing to spend. It really depends how much you want to spend.

You would have to check the dimensions to see if their smallest center channel would fit in your cabinet.
I'm also not sure how well they would mount. They have reasonable sizes but they're bigger than your bose speakers.

 

[Nobu]

If you can wait a week or two, I'm about to put together some CSS-Audio Criton TD-X speakers. Bit pricy at $990 with flat pack, crossover, and unfinished. But they do have lower cost options (Torii is $399, or $299 without the wood) if you wanted to try them, or finished speakers if you are willing to spend more.

I'll glue'em up and see how they sound, and post here if you are interested in my opinion. I'm not real picky about sound, but I can tell you if (imo) they are better than my edifiers when driven by a pioneer receiver anyway.

 

[toast0]

Front Bose Acoustimass cubes: around 250 Hz
Center Bose Acoustimass cube: around 250 Hz, though I have tested 200 Hz
Rear Bose 101s: I need to verify, but I believe around 100 Hz to 120 Hz
Subwoofer/LFE: 120 Hz

If I understand crossover settings correctly (which yeah, i probably don't)...

This seems like you have a hole betwen 120-250 ?

Incidentally, your rears probably can go lower than your fronts. If it's not too much trouble you might try swapping them and see if you like that better.

 

[pendragon1]

Front Bose Acoustimass cubes: around 250 Hz
Center Bose Acoustimass cube: around 250 Hz, though I have tested 200 Hz
Rear Bose 101s: I need to verify, but I believe around 100 Hz to 120 Hz

put them all to 120. i cant find your og ones but the series 2 manual says 100-120.
? https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07SN84GSK

 

[Fire488]

Elac Debut speakers are really good for the money. I bought some Debut v2 speakers about 5 years ago for my home theater and love them. I did a bunch of research and they were widely regarded as the best for the price I was willing to spend. It really depends how much you want to spend.

You would have to check the dimensions to see if their smallest center channel would fit in your cabinet.
I'm also not sure how well they would mount. They have reasonable sizes but they're bigger than your bose speakers.

Thanks, I appreciate the recommendation.

I have heard good things about the ELAC Debut speakers as well, especially for the money. I’m definitely not opposed to looking at them, and I understand they may offer a lot of performance per dollar.

The main limitation in my room is placement. I really do not have room for floorstanding speakers, and I’m also trying to avoid bookshelf speakers sitting on stands or shelves where they may be blocked by furniture. My current speakers are mounted high in the corners and aimed toward the main seating position, and that actually works well for this room.

That is why I have been looking at the SVS Elevation-style speakers. They seem to fit my placement needs better because they are designed to be wall/ceiling mounted and aimed into the room.

The center speaker is the other challenge. I agree that I would need to check dimensions carefully. At this point, I am going to raise the TV and place the center speaker on top of the console instead of trying to force one inside the cabinet.

I’ll still take a look at the ELAC Debut options, especially their center and bookshelf models, but mounting and placement may be the deciding factor for me more than just sound quality per dollar.

 

[Fire488]

If you can wait a week or two, I'm about to put together some CSS-Audio Criton TD-X speakers. Bit pricy at $990 with flat pack, crossover, and unfinished. But they do have lower cost options (Torii is $399, or $299 without the wood) if you wanted to try them, or finished speakers if you are willing to spend more.

I'll glue'em up and see how they sound, and post here if you are interested in my opinion. I'm not real picky about sound, but I can tell you if (imo) they are better than my edifiers when driven by a pioneer receiver anyway.

Thanks, I appreciate that. I’d definitely be interested in hearing your thoughts once you get them built.

The CSS kits look interesting, and I can see how they could be a great value if someone is comfortable building and finishing speakers. My main limitation is the room layout and mounting. I’m trying to keep the speakers wall/corner mounted and aimed toward the main seating position. I do not really have room for towers, and I’m trying to avoid stands or floating shelves if possible.

The center channel is also still my biggest placement challenge. I’m leaning toward raising the TV and putting a proper center speaker on top of the console rather than trying to force a slim center into the cabinet.

So I’m not ruling anything out, but for this room I’m still leaning toward something like the SVS Elevation-style speakers because they seem better suited to the placement I need. That said, I’d absolutely like to hear your opinion once you finish the CSS build.

 

[Fire488]

put them all to 120. i cant find your og ones but the series 2 manual says 100-120.
? https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07SN84GSK

Thanks, that makes sense on the Bose 101s. I need to go back into the Denon and confirm exactly where the rear Bose 101s are currently crossed over, but I believe they are around 100 Hz. If the manual suggests 100-120 Hz, then setting the 101s at 120 Hz sounds reasonable.

The front Bose Acoustimass cubes are a little different because I’m using them without the original Acoustimass module. Right now they are crossed around 250 Hz, and I did test the center at 200 Hz. I may experiment a little more, but I’m hesitant to drop those front cubes all the way to 120 Hz because they are tiny speakers and I don’t want them trying to play lower than they should.

I have tried a few different crossover settings, and while I was able to improve the sound somewhat, I still think I’m running into the limitations of the current Bose setup.

Thanks for the Amazon link too. I’ll take a look at those mounts. If I went with traditional bookshelf speakers, something like that might be useful. Right now I’m still leaning toward the SVS Elevation-style speakers because they are designed to be wall/ceiling mounted and aimed into the room, which fits my current room layout better.

 

[owcraftsman]

The following should significantly improve your audio experience based on my 15 year love affair with Denon

Factory Reset the X2900H
Press and hold the TUNER PRESET CH + and TUNER PRESET CH – buttons on the front panel simultaneously while pressing the POWER button. Release the buttons when "Initialized" appears on the front display.

Run through the set up prompts but before calibration (skip it)
Manually Change these default settings and do the following in the Denon Before you run Calibration

Make sure speaker size is set to small.
Set LFE low pass filter to crossover @ 200 Hz. for Acoustimas 7's and 120 for the surrounds (this is your speaker specific setting not a general setting for all users for example I use 80 hz with my speakers) (all other settings here are for all users no matter the speaker size)
Use a DB meter and go into speaker manual setup and calibrate all speakers (inc subwoofer) to 75 db.
Make sure subwoofer mode is set to LFE not LFE + Main
Also in Speaker set up set distances for each speaker from main listening position using a distance meter.
Make sure make sure all streaming devices are set to output Bit Stream not PCM via HDMI
make sure HDMI audio output is set to Amp only not TV + Amp
Make sure Dynamic EQ is off as well as any other post processing audio enhancements.

Now run Calibration using the Receiver's supplied mic.

Do not blindly trust your auto calibration before saving it to your desired preset manually go back in to speaker settings to make sure the following has not changed if so reset distances, Speaker size and cross over points as direct above. Then save and exit.
Final tip: I like to bump 2-3 db Center channel and sub output, but that's a personal preference YMMV

1st thing I would do is defiantly repair or replace the subwoofer the way you have it setup it is only using one of two voice coils of the sub.

Your SVS intentions seem quit reasonable.

edit moved the line added for speaker specific setting to appropriate line it was mistakenly put on the line below

 

[Fire488]

The following should significantly improve your audio experience based on my 15 year love affair with Denon

Factory Reset the X2900H
Press and hold the TUNER PRESET CH + and TUNER PRESET CH – buttons on the front panel simultaneously while pressing the POWER button. Release the buttons when "Initialized" appears on the front display.

Run through the set up prompts but before calibration (skip it)
Manually Change these default settings and do the following in the Denon Before you run Calibration

Make sure speaker size is set to small.
Set LFE low pass filter to crossover @ 200 Hz. for Acoustimas 7's and 120 for the surrounds (this is your speaker specific setting not a general setting for all users for example I use 80 hz with my speakers) (all other settings here are for all users no matter the speaker size)
Use a DB meter and go into speaker manual setup and calibrate all speakers (inc subwoofer) to 75 db.
Make sure subwoofer mode is set to LFE not LFE + Main
Also in Speaker set up set distances for each speaker from main listening position using a distance meter.
Make sure make sure all streaming devices are set to output Bit Stream not PCM via HDMI
make sure HDMI audio output is set to Amp only not TV + Amp
Make sure Dynamic EQ is off as well as any other post processing audio enhancements.

Now run Calibration using the Receiver's supplied mic.

Do not blindly trust your auto calibration before saving it to your desired preset manually go back in to speaker settings to make sure the following has not changed if so reset distances, Speaker size and cross over points as direct above. Then save and exit.
Final tip: I like to bump 2-3 db Center channel and sub output, but that's a personal preference YMMV

1st thing I would do is defiantly repair or replace the subwoofer the way you have it setup it is only using one of two voice coils of the sub.

Your SVS intentions seem quit reasonable.

edit moved the line added for speaker specific setting to appropriate line it was mistakenly put on the line below

Thanks for taking the time to write all that out. I really appreciate it.

A factory reset on the new Denon is something I may do before I make a final decision. The old AVR-1909 is gone, but the current receiver is the AVR-X2900H, so if I keep chasing settings and still feel like something is off, starting fresh with a full reset and setup makes sense.

I have already run Audyssey, and I also went back manually afterward and checked distances, speaker levels, crossovers, and speaker size. All speakers are set to Small, not Full Range. I also measured the speaker distances from the main listening position and adjusted the levels manually because Audyssey was close, but not exactly where I wanted it.

Current crossover settings are roughly:
Front Bose Acoustimass cubes: around 250 Hz, tested 200 Hz also
Center Bose Acoustimass cube: around 250 Hz, tested 200 Hz also
Rear Bose 101s: Around 100–120 Hz
Subwoofer/LFE: 120 Hz

One thing I want to clarify: when you say set the LFE low pass filter to 200 Hz, do you mean the individual speaker crossover for the Bose Acoustimass cubes, or the Denon’s actual LPF for LFE setting? My understanding is that the LPF for LFE is separate from speaker crossovers and is usually left at 120 Hz, while the individual speaker crossovers are set based on the speakers.

I agree on Subwoofer Mode being LFE, not LFE + Main. I also agree on HDMI audio output being Amp only, not TV + Amp. I’ll double-check the streaming devices and make sure they are outputting bitstream/passthrough where possible.

I’m also going to revisit the Audyssey settings. I have tried Dynamic EQ on and off, and I know Dynamic Volume can change the sound, so I’ll make sure Dynamic Volume and other processing options are off while testing.

As far as the subwoofer, I agree it needs to be repaired or replaced. The MartinLogan Dynamo 500 has a damaged RCA/LFE input, and now the other RCA input has failed too. I already ordered a replacement RCA jack and plan to attempt the repair. If that does not work, I will either look into factory repair or replace the subwoofer, likely with something like the SVS PB-1000 Pro.

I’m not sure the broken RCA input means it is only using one of two voice coils, but I do agree the damaged input could affect proper LFE/bypass operation and integration with the receiver. Either way, the subwoofer issue needs to be fixed.

The SVS setup I am considering is still:
SVS Ultra Evolution Center
Four SVS Ultra Evolution Elevation speakers
SVS PB-1000 Pro subwoofer

Before I spend the money, I may do exactly what you suggested: factory reset the Denon, build the setup back cleanly, rerun calibration, and then verify speaker size, crossovers, distances, subwoofer mode, and levels afterward. Thank you!

 

[owcraftsman]

Thanks for taking the time to write all that out. I really appreciate it.

A factory reset on the new Denon is something I may do before I make a final decision. The old AVR-1909 is gone, but the current receiver is the AVR-X2900H, so if I keep chasing settings and still feel like something is off, starting fresh with a full reset and setup makes sense.

I would reset start fresh especially considering your issues.

I have already run Audyssey, and I also went back manually afterward and checked distances, speaker levels, crossovers, and speaker size. All speakers are set to Small, not Full Range. I also measured the speaker distances from the main listening position and adjusted the levels manually because Audyssey was close, but not exactly where I wanted it.

Current crossover settings are roughly:
Front Bose Acoustimass cubes: around 250 Hz, tested 200 Hz also
Center Bose Acoustimass cube: around 250 Hz, tested 200 Hz also
Rear Bose 101s: Around 100–120 Hz
Subwoofer/LFE: 120 Hz

One thing I want to clarify: when you say set the LFE low pass filter to 200 Hz, do you mean the individual speaker crossover for the Bose Acoustimass cubes, or the Denon’s actual LPF for LFE setting? My understanding is that the LPF for LFE is separate from speaker crossovers and is usually left at 120 Hz, while the individual speaker crossovers are set based on the speakers.

Individual

I agree on Subwoofer Mode being LFE, not LFE + Main. I also agree on HDMI audio output being Amp only, not TV + Amp. I’ll double-check the streaming devices and make sure they are outputting bitstream/passthrough where possible.

I’m also going to revisit the Audyssey settings. I have tried Dynamic EQ on and off, and I know Dynamic Volume can change the sound, so I’ll make sure Dynamic Volume and other processing options are off while testing.

there is no scenario in which I would use the audio enhancement features built in the this AVR but YMMV

As far as the subwoofer, I agree it needs to be repaired or replaced. The MartinLogan Dynamo 500 has a damaged RCA/LFE input, and now the other RCA input has failed too. I already ordered a replacement RCA jack and plan to attempt the repair. If that does not work, I will either look into factory repair or replace the subwoofer, likely with something like the SVS PB-1000 Pro.

I’m not sure the broken RCA input means it is only using one of two voice coils, but I do agree the damaged input could affect proper LFE/bypass operation and integration with the receiver. Either way, the subwoofer issue needs to be fixed.

The only way to utilize both coils with a single input is through the LFE channel. The good news is it should be easily enough to solder in a new RCA connector. You could probably euthanize something you have hanging around to fix her up straight away. GL

The SVS setup I am considering is still:
SVS Ultra Evolution Center
Four SVS Ultra Evolution Elevation speakers
SVS PB-1000 Pro subwoofer

Before I spend the money, I may do exactly what you suggested: factory reset the Denon, build the setup back cleanly, rerun calibration, and then verify speaker size, crossovers, distances, subwoofer mode, and levels afterward. Thank you!

Too bad the X2900H isn't compatible with the Audyssey MultiEQ editor App or I'd recommend that.

 

[Nobu]

You could probably euthanize something you have hanging around to fix her up straight away. GL

Utilize?

 

[Nobu]

Known subwoofer issue:
The RCA/LFE input jack on the rear panel is damaged/broken. I am currently using the working left RCA input.

Wait, did this happen recently? Does the sub have stereo input, and you are only using the one? That's probably why it's weak -- in order to drive the sub at it's rated power, you need to connect both left and right channels (or use LFE/sub-in).

 

[pendragon1]

Utilize?

both.
his main issue is "dialog and vocal" sounding off, which would be the fronts, not a sub issue, i would think. but yes with only the L rca its only getting half the input signal and may mess with that.

 

[owcraftsman]

Utilize?

I'd bet you could barrow (euthanize) an RCA connector from that old X1900H to put in your sub.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=da1FmeHVuQI

 

[pendragon1]

the 1909 that is

already gone

?

find an old rca set thats long enough, use one side to repair the right channel by cutting off one end and soldering it in, then use the other side to connect the left channel.
oh wait, you only need the right for LFE anyways, rip it in two and solder it in.

 

[Fire488]

I would reset start fresh especially considering your issues.

Individual

there is no scenario in which I would use the audio enhancement features built in the this AVR but YMMV

The only way to utilize both coils with a single input is through the LFE channel. The good news is it should be easily enough to solder in a new RCA connector. You could probably euthanize something you have hanging around to fix her up straight away. GL

Too bad the X2900H isn't compatible with the Audyssey MultiEQ editor App or I'd recommend that.

Thanks again, I really appreciate you taking the time to break this down and respond point by point. This has been very helpful, and I can tell you’ve spent a lot of time with Denon equipment.

I agree that doing a full reset on the X2900H is probably the smartest next step, especially before I make any final decision on replacing speakers. Once the subwoofer is back up and running, I’m going to start fresh, reset the Denon, build the setup back cleanly, and rerun calibration.

Thanks for clarifying the crossover point. I thought you may have meant the Denon’s actual LPF for LFE setting, but if you meant the individual speaker crossover for the Acoustimass cubes, then we are on the same page. I’ll likely keep the Bose Acoustimass cubes around 200–250 Hz and the Bose 101 surrounds around 100–120 Hz. I’ll also keep Subwoofer Mode set to LFE, not LFE + Main.

I agree on HDMI audio output being Amp only, and I’ll double-check the sources to make sure they’re set to bitstream/passthrough where possible.

On the audio enhancement side, I understand what you’re saying. For testing, I’ll shut off Dynamic EQ, Dynamic Volume, and any extra processing so I can hear the clean baseline first. I may compare Dynamic EQ later at lower listening levels, but I agree the best way to troubleshoot is to start clean.

As far as the MartinLogan Dynamo 500, I actually ended up ordering a replacement backplate/amp assembly directly from MartinLogan. It is reconditioned, checked out, and guaranteed to work, so I’m going to wait for that instead of continuing to repair the RCA jack myself. Hopefully it arrives within the next week or so. Once that is installed, I’ll be able to run the Denon subwoofer output properly into the LFE input and test the system the right way.

If the sub still does not get me where I want to be, then I’ll look harder at replacing it, most likely with something like the SVS PB-1000 Pro.

On the voice coil point, I’m not trying to argue that either way. My main concern is getting the proper LFE/bypass input working again so I can test everything correctly.

I’m also going to double-check the Audyssey app compatibility. I had thought the X2900H might not work with the MultEQ Editor app either, but I’m seeing the X2900H listed now, so maybe that changed or the list was updated. If it works, I may try the app after I reset and rerun calibration.

Thanks again for all the help. This gives me a much better plan before I throw money at new speakers.

 

[Fire488]

Wait, did this happen recently? Does the sub have stereo input, and you are only using the one? That's probably why it's weak -- in order to drive the sub at it's rated power, you need to connect both left and right channels (or use LFE/sub-in).

Yes, the RCA issue is recent. The Dynamo 500 has left/right RCA inputs, with the right input also serving as the LFE input. The LFE/right jack was damaged, so I temporarily used the left RCA input just to keep the sub working.

You may be right that using only the left input instead of the proper LFE input could have affected output or integration. I also understand that some subs get a little more input gain when both left and right are fed with a Y-splitter.

At this point I’m not going to keep chasing that setup because I ordered a replacement rear backplate/amp assembly directly from MartinLogan. It’s reconditioned, tested, and guaranteed to work. Once that comes in, I’ll be able to connect the Denon subwoofer output properly to the LFE input and rerun the setup from scratch.

 

[Fire488]

I'd bet you could barrow (euthanize) an RCA connector from that old X1900H to put in your sub.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=da1FmeHVuQI

LOL. I actually did solder a new RCA jack in place. I replaced the shielding properly and all. The problem is that sub makes a constant P-P-P-P-P-P-P sound that gets louder or softer when I go near it or touch it. Martin Logan thinks one of the amps may have shorted. I checked all the capacitors and they all visually look good. Either way I have a new/ reconditioned backplate on the way.

 

[Fire488]

the 1909 that is

?

find an old rca set thats long enough, use one side to repair the right channel by cutting off one end and soldering it in, then use the other side to connect the left channel.
oh wait, you only need the right for LFE anyways, rip it in two and solder it in.

Yeah, the AVR-1909 is already gone. It had multiple issues and I already replaced it with the Denon AVR-X2900H, so unfortunately I can’t go back and compare settings from the old receiver.

On the RCA repair, that would have been a good temporary fix. I actually had the same thought about using/soldering in a replacement RCA lead. But I ended up ordering a replacement rear backplate/amp assembly directly from MartinLogan. It’s reconditioned, tested, and guaranteed to work, so I’m going to wait for that rather than keep modifying the damaged plate.

Once that comes in, I’ll hook the Denon sub output back into the proper LFE input, reset/recalibrate everything, and then see where the system really stands.

 

[pendragon1]

https://bose-user-manual.com/Bose-Acoustimass-7-Series-Ii-Manual.php
xover should be lower than 250.

how bad did they hit you for the amp panel?

Yeah, the AVR-1909 is already gone.

i was trying to point out to ow that you already said it was gone.

 

[Fire488]

View attachment 815381
https://bose-user-manual.com/Bose-Acoustimass-7-Series-Ii-Manual.php
xover should be lower than 250.

how bad did they hit you for the amp panel?


i was trying to point out to ow that you already said it was gone.

Ah, got it on the AVR-1909 comment. I didn’t realize you were pointing that out to OW. Yes, the 1909 is already gone, so unfortunately I can’t go back and compare the old settings.

On the Bose manual, I agree with what you’re saying if the Acoustimass bass module is still being used. In my case, I no longer have the Acoustimass module in the system. The Bose cubes are connected directly to the Denon, and the MartinLogan Dynamo 500 is being used as the powered subwoofer.

That’s why I don’t think I can follow the manual exactly and set Subwoofer to No/None. That setting assumes the Acoustimass module is handling the bass. Since I’m not using that module, I need the Denon to recognize a subwoofer and send bass to the MartinLogan through the LFE/sub output.

Same idea on the crossover. With the Acoustimass module in the chain, 100–120 Hz may make sense because the module is doing what Bose designed it to do. But with the cubes running directly off the Denon, I’m hesitant to cross them that low. For now I’m probably safer keeping the Acoustimass cubes higher, somewhere around 200–250 Hz, and the Bose 101 surrounds around 100–120 Hz.

As far as the amp panel, I ended up ordering a reconditioned replacement backplate/amp assembly directly from MartinLogan. It is tested and guaranteed to work. It wasn’t free, obviously, but I felt better doing that than continuing to patch the damaged RCA input or guessing with the current plate. Once that comes in, I’ll be able to connect the Denon properly to the LFE input and rerun everything clean. They got me for $106.00 plus shipping. It will be here on the 18th and shipping is about $22. Not bad. It sounded great when it worked so I feel it was a good deal either way. Thanks for the help man, I really appreciate it.

 

[pendragon1]

yeah, obviously dont turn it off since you dont have it. i have tiny little 3" surrounds that cross at 150. pushing all the way up to 250 is why they "have more of a “megaphone” type sound", youve cut out all low and a big chunk of mid range, the normal vocal range. (adult males average ~116 Hz, adult females ~205 Hz). try it at a lower volume and work up, see if they distort.

thats not too bad, cheaper than a dayton panel....

 

[Fire488]

yeah, obviously dont turn it off since you dont have it. i have tiny little 3" surrounds that cross at 150. pushing all the way up to 250 is why they "have more of a “megaphone” type sound", youve cut out all low and a big chunk of mid range, the normal vocal range. (adult males average ~116 Hz, adult females ~205 Hz). try it at a lower volume and work up, see if they distort.

thats not too bad, cheaper than a dayton panel....

I'll play with the X-overs on the speakers, but I am getting new ones soon. I have a great TV and the sound definitely enhances the total experience.

 

[owcraftsman]

Thanks again, I really appreciate you taking the time to break this down and respond point by point. This has been very helpful, and I can tell you’ve spent a lot of time with Denon equipment.

I agree that doing a full reset on the X2900H is probably the smartest next step, especially before I make any final decision on replacing speakers. Once the subwoofer is back up and running, I’m going to start fresh, reset the Denon, build the setup back cleanly, and rerun calibration.

Thanks for clarifying the crossover point. I thought you may have meant the Denon’s actual LPF for LFE setting, but if you meant the individual speaker crossover for the Acoustimass cubes, then we are on the same page. I’ll likely keep the Bose Acoustimass cubes around 200–250 Hz and the Bose 101 surrounds around 100–120 Hz. I’ll also keep Subwoofer Mode set to LFE, not LFE + Main.

I agree on HDMI audio output being Amp only, and I’ll double-check the sources to make sure they’re set to bitstream/passthrough where possible.

On the audio enhancement side, I understand what you’re saying. For testing, I’ll shut off Dynamic EQ, Dynamic Volume, and any extra processing so I can hear the clean baseline first. I may compare Dynamic EQ later at lower listening levels, but I agree the best way to troubleshoot is to start clean.

As far as the MartinLogan Dynamo 500, I actually ended up ordering a replacement backplate/amp assembly directly from MartinLogan. It is reconditioned, checked out, and guaranteed to work, so I’m going to wait for that instead of continuing to repair the RCA jack myself. Hopefully it arrives within the next week or so. Once that is installed, I’ll be able to run the Denon subwoofer output properly into the LFE input and test the system the right way.

If the sub still does not get me where I want to be, then I’ll look harder at replacing it, most likely with something like the SVS PB-1000 Pro.

On the voice coil point, I’m not trying to argue that either way. My main concern is getting the proper LFE/bypass input working again so I can test everything correctly.

I’m also going to double-check the Audyssey app compatibility. I had thought the X2900H might not work with the MultEQ Editor app either, but I’m seeing the X2900H listed now, so maybe that changed or the list was updated. If it works, I may try the app after I reset and rerun calibration.

Thanks again for all the help. This gives me a much better plan before I throw money at new speakers.

Here is where I recommend you set your crossovers

I do use Dynamic EQ but I recommend most folks turn it off.
If you want to get into the weeds turn it on and use a 10 db offset for streaming and 0 offset for Blue Ray or physical media.

I still say 200 hz for the Bose but honestly you need an upgrade there too those are 20+ yrs old and like have damage to their surrounds causing most of your lackluster sound quality

I have no idea what your budget might be but here is a solid bang for the buck pick
https://rslspeakers.com/products/10e-cg3m-5-1-home-theater-system-1

The extra sub would do you good but if not in the budget for now skip it.

 

[Mega6]

Upgrade to Dirac Live, Bose are overpriced and the ones u have are just ok. Bang for the buck the Logan sub is pretty good. I have a SVS 16PB plus with the upgraded amp and cant say enough good things about it - an absolute monster sub. The rest of my setup is mid grade klipsch RP-280, so good enough for me and decent music/home theater speakers. Dirac should get you in the ballpark of good sound, just go from there. I had to add a few db to my sub off the dirac settings and it sounds great.